Subject: MAX Digest - 19 Aug 1999 to 20 Aug 1999 (#1999-249)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 00:00:00 -0400
From:
Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments <MAX@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
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There are 9 messages totalling 364 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MIDI / msp timing problem (4)
  2. Euler's constant
  3. audio to midi (2)
  4. CPU and pcontrol problems
  5. (ot): Powerbook/Midiman USB problem

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Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:52:36 -0800
From:Tim Perkis <perkis@ARTIFACT.COM>
Subject: Re: MIDI / msp timing problem

Lawrence Casserley <leo@CHILTERN.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote:

>>i am still dealing with my MIDI / msp timing problem. ... I am
>>wondering how other people on the list are dealing with this issue ?
>>doesn`t it matter for you ? is no one using midi + max + msp ???????? does
>>no one produce rhythmical / dance music with this setup ?

After using MAX for years, I've concluded that it is barely suitable for
generating music with very conventional (i.e., recognizable) rhythms. The
simpler the rhythm, the better the performance must be to be convincing. I
haven't found any machine, new or old, which provides reliable enough
timing in MAX to produce this kind of music. I've found, to my surprise,
that older macintoshes/OS versions, like a powerbook 145 running system 7.1
are better than newer (G3/8.5) systems, but the occasional glitch/delay
always crops up.

I've had the best results having MAX slaved to a relatively slow (16th or
32nd note rate) MIDI clock (not real midi clock, which has choked every
system I've tried it on, but slaved to an external hardware sequencer
generating a sequence of midi note-ons at 32nd note rate).

If other people have had better results, I'd love to hear about how they do
it. But this is one of those issues where different people's perception of
"good enough" may vary widely.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

T I MP E R K I S

home: (tel/fax)+01 510 528 7241
perkis@artifact.com
http://www.artifact.com/perkis

at Interval Research Corporation:+01 650 842 6281
perkis@interval.com

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:52:20 -0400
From:Jeff Brown <jeffb@AMNH.ORG>


Subject: Euler's constant

> > What's Eulers Constant?

> Euler's Constant (aka Mascheroni's constant) is the limit (as > n oes to
> infinity) of

>1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5 + ... + 1/n - log n.

Oh. I take back the 'e' part then, fellas. Woops!

------------------------------

Date:Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:55:35 +0200
From:Jeffrey Burns <jeff@BERLIN.SNAFU.DE>
Subject: audio to midi

On the question of converting audio to midi, we got quite a range of
opinions, spanning from

>That's really difficult. Most real-world,
>non-musical signals currently
>defy real-time pitch analysis.
>

to

>Actually, it's not at all hard to create a patch that will convert audio
>data to MIDI in real time.

Just for fun, I wanted to see how hard it really is to make a audio-to-midi
convertor, given the restriction that it only has to tackle a monophonic
input. As long as I sing "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" or some Gregorian chant,
this patch seems to do the job. It uses the fiddle object, available on Max
support sites. (N.B. If you're a bass, you better not sing too low, since
the fiddle object is deaf to low tones.)

max v2;
#N vpatcher 50 40 358 408;
#P message 255 269 28 196617 stop;
#P message 215 269 36 196617 record;
#P button 194 269 15 0;
#P newex 81 317 50 196617 midiout;
#P newex 81 267 100 196617 midiformat;
#P newex 81 293 50 196617 seq;
#P newex 182 215 31 196617 0;
#P newex 42 215 31 196617 0;
#P newex 81 243 44 196617 pack;
#P newex 81 184 79 196617 t i b b;
#P newex 115 215 60 196617 0;
#P newex 165 137 42 196617 * 1.27;
#P newex 81 159 44 196617 change;
#P newex 81 137 44 196617 + 0.5;
#P toggle 37 43 15 0;
#P newex 37 65 50 196617 adc~ 3;
#P newex 167 43 45 196617 loadbang;
#P message 167 65 72 196617 \; dsp sigvs 64;
#P newex 81 114 94 196617 unpack 0. 0.;
#P newex 37 89 100 196617 fiddle~ 1024 1 20 1;
#P comment 52 21 180 196617 Monophonic Audio-to-Midi Convertor;
#P comment 177 317 69 196617 by Jeff Burns;
#P fasten 20 0 16 0 220 289 86 289;
#P fasten 21 0 16 0 260 289 86 289;
#P fasten 19 0 16 0 199 289 86 289;
#P connect 16 0 18 0;
#P connect 17 0 16 0;
#P fasten 15 0 13 1 187 238 120 238;


#P connect 13 0 17 0;
#P fasten 14 0 13 0 47 237 86 237;
#P fasten 12 0 14 1 86 210 68 210;
#P connect 12 1 11 0;
#P connect 12 0 13 0;
#P fasten 12 2 15 0 154 207 187 207;
#P connect 11 0 13 1;
#P fasten 12 2 14 0 154 207 47 207;
#P connect 10 0 11 1;
#P connect 9 0 12 0;
#P connect 7 0 6 0;
#P connect 8 0 9 0;
#P connect 6 0 2 0;
#P connect 3 0 8 0;
#P connect 5 0 4 0;
#P connect 3 1 10 0;
#P connect 2 2 3 0;
#P pop;

Jeff Burns

http://www.snafu.de/~jeff

------------------------------

Date:Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:41:16 +0200
From:Daniel Landau <danlan@XS4ALL.NL>
Subject: Re: MIDI / msp timing problem

>> i am still dealing with my MIDI / msp timing problem. David Z. wrote me
>> that he does not know exactly why there is so much random delay between
>> MIDI
and MSP but he will have a look at it later this year. I am
>> wondering how other people on the list are dealing with this issue ?
>> doesn`t it matter for you ? is no one using midi + max + msp ???????? does
>> no one produce rhythmical / dance music with this setup ? are you all
>> re-recording every track into protools and editing every single event ???? =


> The problem (I guess) is that MacOS is simply too likely tohave arcane
> business of its own that can't be pre-empted by msp - I spent enough time
> back in the 80s messing with real-time OSs to know how tricky priority
> systems can be. MacOS (like most OSs) isn't a real time OS - it has other
> priorities, which aren't
compatible with real-time work - maybe when we
> get the 500GHz G17 it won't be a problem - but now..........

but there are a bunch of applications out there (for the mac) that record/playback
midi and audio simultaneously with tight timing. it has to be a max issue, doesn't
it?

daniel

------------------------------

Date:Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:17:50 +0200
From:Robert Henke <imbalance@SNAFU.DE>
Subject: Re: MIDI / msp timing problem

That timing issue consists of two problems:
1. how stable is the overall timing,which means does a tempo object wich
should output 130 bpm really output this tempo ( on newer machines it does
this accurate enough for my purposes ) and 2. is the rhythm constant or are
there any non predictible delays between succesive events. Unfortunally the
latter issue is not exactly a highlight of MAX/MSP. Anyway i could handle this
and accept that this is the human ( the gost in the machine: DZ ??? ) aspect
of MAX.
The other thing is that i found it impossible to achive synchronicity with


MSP/MIDI . this is my real problem because at least two things happen at the
same time should be able to be heard at the same time, independently from some
overall timing problems. (I am not talking about latency in a static sense.
Everything static is predictable and can be solved via delays. )
I do not know how e.g. this gPort Interface which provide a modem out for my
Studio 4 on a blue g3 can be responsible for random delays or how theMAX/MSP
scheduler is handling things, but thats what i try to find out.
If it has something to do with that gPort interface than it must also appear
e.g if someone is using logic/cubase/protools and is trying to get MIDI and
audio in sync.
Has anyone done thiswith a Studio 4 ? ( or another interface ? which one ?
which results ? )If this runs stable than it is a MAX problem.
There seem to be two schedulers , one for MAX and one for audio/msp.
If the MAX scheduler runs as a slave of MSP than it is bound to the blocksize.
this would mean a quantisation of 1.45 ms for 64 samples. How is it organized
? Every 1.45 ms thesoftware should calculate all MAX things and then all the
Audio stuff. If this cannot be done within the given time than this means
overload. If it can be done within that time everything is fine.
Why does it not work this way ? How do other software developers solve this
problem ? If Logic Audio can have a sufficient timing why is it impossible for
max
Or is there a chance to change things in Version 4 some day ???

Sorry for insisting on this topic, but once i decided to use machines for
making music because i am to slow with my hands and now i have the impression
that i am more precise than my computers . Sounds wierd for me at the end of
1999 ....

cheers,
rob.


> The problem (I guess) is that MacOS is simply too likely tohave arcane
> business of its own that can't be pre-empted by msp - I spent enough time
> back in the 80s messing with real-time OSs to know how tricky priority
> systems can be. MacOS (like most OSs) isn't a real time OS - it has other
> priorities, which aren't
compatible with real-time work - maybe when we
> get the 500GHz G17 it won't be a problem - but now..........
>
> Best
>
> Lawrence

------------------------------

Date:Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:10:32 -0400
From:Stephen Kay <sk@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: MIDI / msp timing problem

With regards to this discussion of Max timing, I remember a
long time ago there was a discussion of why 1 ms was not
1 ms in Max, and why 120 bpm was not 120 bpm in Max. Can
anyone remember/dredge up this information?

Thanks,
Stephen Kay

------------------------------

Date:Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:32:09 -0700
From:David Zicarelli <zicarell@CYCLING74.COM>
Subject: Re: CPU and pcontrol problems


jvkr <jvkr@KONCON.NL> writes:

>According to manuals:
>
>-- Pcontrol/enable: ...enables the Midi objects...
>-- Mute~: ...turns off the signal processing in all...
>
>And for me mute~ works.

Richard Dudas pointed out to me recently that mute~ does not
mute DSP objects in subpatchers of the patcher you're muting.
For this you would want to send the enable 0 1 message to
pcontrol and to reenable, enable 1 1. The second 1 argument to
the enable message denotes a "deep" enable/disable that
reaches all MIDI and DSP objects in all subpatchers of the patch
you are enabling/disabling.

enable 0, without the additional argument, merely disables
MIDI and DSP objects in the immediate subpatcher. mute~ does
this too, and only this. It will need to be changed.

David Z.

------------------------------

Date:Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:14:22 +0200
From:Peter Castine <pcastine@PRZ.TU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: audio to midi

On around 20-8-99 8:55, Jeffrey Burns said something like:

>On the question of converting audio to midi, we got quite a range of
>opinions, spanning from
>
>>That's really difficult. Most real-world,
>>non-musical signals currently
>>defy real-time pitch analysis.
>>
>
>to
>
>>Actually, it's not at all hard to create a patch that will convert audio
>>data to MIDI in real time.

Just please don't forget the caveat I attached to the low end of the
gamut: building the patch ain't hard, but will it put out something that
sounds like what the original writer wants?

Anyway, thanks for the patch, I'm looking forward to trying it out.

See you at G&G's party later, (that's for Jeff, not the rest of the
list;-)

Peter

----------------- http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~pcastine/-----------------
Dr. Peter Castine| I am very pleased to announce that the
4-15 Music & Technology| 26th International Computer Music Conference
| will take place in Berlin in the year 2000.
| We look forward to seeing you here!

------------------------------

Date:Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:21:46 -0700
From:William Tsun-Yuk Hsu <hsu@TLALOC.SFSU.EDU>
Subject: (ot): Powerbook/Midiman USB problem


Hello,

Thanks to those of you who had suggestions when I
posted earlier about my Powerbook/Midiman problem.
I've made a tiny bit of progress, but am still
having problems that's stumping Midiman tech support,
so I thought I'd try asking here again!

I'm using a 333MHz G3 laptop with a Midiman Midisport
2x2 interface. Software: MacOS 8.6 (HFS+), OMS 2.3.7.
I can send MIDI data from OMS to external devices, but
OMS doesn't see any controller data from external
devices. All the indicator LEDs seem to be behaving
properly.

I've turned off all the extensions I can, including
the infamous USB floppy enabler. I've tried five
different controller/synth combinations, two different
Midiman interfaces, spent hours on the phone with
Midiman tech support and troubleshooting with the
great people at Haight Ashbury Music Center...

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks for
the indulgence...

Bill

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End of MAX Digest - 19 Aug 1999 to 20 Aug 1999 (#1999-249)
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