Subject: MAX Digest - 18 Aug 1999 to 19 Aug 1999 - Special issue (#1999-247)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:40:54 -0400
From:
Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments <MAX@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
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There are 19 messages totalling 716 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. groove~ bug?
  2. fft~ amplitude range (2)
  3. CPU and pcontrol problems
  4. MAX Digest - 17 Aug 1999 to 18 Aug 1999 (#1999-246)
  5. sf names
  6. sfcontrol~???
  7. Pluggouts
  8. Oops (2)
  9. Eliminating Mac boot-up sound?
  10. dynamic level to MIDI data?
  11. video sampling
  12. AES '99
  13. pitch to MIDI (2)
  14. Pitch to MIDI
  15. MIDI / msp timing problem
  16. dynamic level to MIDI data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:37:36 +0100
From:Benjamin Thigpen <Benjamin.Thigpen@IRCAM.FR>
Subject: Re: groove~ bug?

Salut Gilbert !

Your explanation is ingenious, Gilbert, but I _do_ think you're wrong.

I think the bottom line is that groove~ should function the same way
whether the looppoints are specified by floats or by signals. And the MSP
documentation states:

"signal
In middle inlet:Sets the starting point of the loop in milliseconds.
In right inlet :Sets the end point of the loop in milliseconds."

"int or float
In middle inlet:Sets the starting point of the loop in milliseconds.
In right inlet :Sets the end point of the loop in milliseconds."

"signal
Out right outlet:Sync output. During the loop portion of the sample,
this outlet outputs a signal that goes from 0 when the loop starts
to 1
when the loop ends."

If you specify the loop points with floats, everything functions as
described here. But if you do so with signals, you get the other behavior
(clever for you, unuseable for me) we've been discussing.

Ben

---------------------------

>Hi,
>well, as for me, I think groove~ 's OK .


>
>I find
it nice to access sample level rather than decimal ms,
>and you can always use the mstosamps~
or sampstoms~ to do the conversion.
>
>Concerning the sync output,
>I think the whole real length of the sample is scaled from 0. to 1.,
>but of course it's not the lenght of the loop, so unless the loop is all
>the sample, it is scaled between begin > 0. and
end < 1.
>
>The sync signal reaches 1. to tell that it has completed the loop.
>This is the thing
Ben was considering as a bug when saying sync
>doesn't go from 0. to 1. within a loop.
>I must say I find this groove~behaviour very cleaver,
>because, if you put an " ==~ 1."
followed with "edge~",
>you get a bang each time the loop is starting again, moreover
>you always know where you are in absolute time in the sample and in the loop !
>
>let' say my loop is scale between 0.2 and 0.6 (in respect
>to the whole sample),
>then if you see the sync output (with print~),
>you will have
>
>0.2 ..... 0.5
.... 0.58 .. 0.59 .. 0.6... 1. 0.2 ..... etc.
>
>hope it helps, anybody correct me if I'm wrong !
>
>Gilbert
>>>
>>>Indeed groove~
>>>accepts signal as samples, rather then milliseconds. Also the sync output
>>>is not updated with a signal as loop-end.

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:49:33 +0100
From:Benjamin Thigpen <Benjamin.Thigpen@IRCAM.FR>
Subject: Re: fft~ amplitude range

Hi wolf,

Thanks for your answer. Unfortunately, you aimed a little too high for me:
(ok, I won't ask why, but) What's Eulers Constant?

In the meantime I have found a nice module in a patch by Olivier Warusfel
which plots these amplitudes in a range from -60.0 to 0.0 to ??, with a
nice logarithmic curve, giving you a very fine control over the low end.

max v2;
#N vpatcher 277 181 434 385;
#P newex 15 30 108 196617 fft~ 1024 1024 0;
#P newex 49 58 25 196617 *~;
#P newex 15 58 29 196617 *~;
#P newex 15 129 51 196617 *~ 10.;
#P newex 15 85 69 196617 +~ 0.000001;
#P newex 15 107 51 196617 log~ 10.;
#P connect 1 0 0 0;
#P connect 0 0 2 0;
#P connect 5 0 3 0;
#P connect 5 0 3 1;
#P connect 5 1 4 0;
#P connect 5 1 4 1;
#P connect 4 0 1 0;
#P connect 3 0 1 0;
#P pop;

Ben


---------------------------------

>Once I have extracted the amplitudes from fft~'s outputs (by squaring the
>real and imaginary, adding them together and taking the square root), I am
>able to manipulate them ok, but I don't understand what they are. In what
>units are they, and what is their range? They seem to go from 0 to 307 or
>so, but almost all the action is between 0 and 50. Is there some way to
>get them into a nice, useful range of (say) 0.0 to 1.0?

>Any explanations greatly appreciated.
>Ben


Try : FFT size (eg. 1024) over Eulers Constant as max. value

then Magnitude over max. value = scaled Magnitude

(don't ask me why, but it works for me and looks somewhat reasonable)

wolf

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:08:31 +0200
From:jvkr <jvkr@KONCON.NL>
Subject: Re: CPU and pcontrol problems

>>From:John Phillips <jpch@TERRAGIZMO.NET>
>>Subject: CPU and pcontrol problems
>>
>>I'm working on an MSP patch with 8 patchers of "sound-makers" heading for
>>one dac~ -all with a toggle box hooked to enable $1 then into
pcontrol
>>outside of the patcher...
>
>I assume you use a faster machine. I'm more or less afraid, that enabling
>or disabling the patchers don't make much difference. I'm working on a
>7100/80, which is really...
and more...

According to manuals:

-- Pcontrol/enable: ...enables the Midi objects...
-- Mute~: ...turns off the signal processing in all...

And for me mute~ works.

johan

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 01:41:05 -0700
From:Jim Wood <jswood@ROCKETMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 17 Aug 1999 to 18 Aug 1999 (#1999-246)

Date:Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:28:58 -0400
From:Jeff Brown <jeffb@AMNH.ORG>
Subject: Pluggouts

> Date:Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:34:01 +0100
> From:
Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green
<cahen.sefton.green@WANADOO.FR>
> Subject: Pluggouts
>> Why not doing 'pluggouts' instead ?
>> that meens separate application
>> I did some with MSP and truly it's much more fun.
> >I which someone would develop some good interface


>> including pluggo and commercial vst pluggins.

>What? This sounds like an idea I'd be interested
in, >>if I ... err ...
>understood it.

Hyperprism/Hyperengine ?? standalone engine, im not
sure if this supports pluggo. see www.arboretum.com

Pluggout is a neat idea, a stand alone maker for
pluggo would make it one of the most excellent
products, bearing in mind there are peolpe who dont
use Logic/Cubase/etc

Pluggo in MSP - why would you wantto use vst~
object to use pluggo - remembering that these are
Max/MSP patches anyway - easier way to run patch
versions of pluggo patches in msp. Maybe if cycling74
would want to release the patches behind the plugs -
although then again they might not!
There could be other ways

salut

jim
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:29:07 +0100
From:Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green <cahen.sefton.green@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: sf names

>Date:Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:47:50 -0400
>From:
Otto Henry <muhenry@EASTNET.EDUC.ECU.EDU>
>Subject: about snd files
>
>Alexander H. asked anbout snd files-
>
>I always have problems with complex snd file names- sometimes no matter
>waht
>Max won't see them unless I just name them "fred" or something simple
>like
>that-
>hope this helps,
>Otto

My experience is that the main source of problem is hard spaces
, another is file types, I keep having unexplained troubles finding
soundfiles when they are placed within a folder of a folder of max folder,
the indicated path doesn't seem to be very stable or any detail change
makes it two fragile. Couln't we find a kind of relativ link like for html
pages ?

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:04:42 +0100
From:Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green <cahen.sefton.green@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: sfcontrol~???

>sfcontrol~? what's that?
>
I mean sfctrl~
sorry!


------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:30:07 +0100
From:Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green <cahen.sefton.green@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: Pluggouts

>What? This sounds like an idea I'd be interested in, if I ... err ...
>understood it.
>

C-rious lit

I meant having separate applications, in real time or in batchto produce
effects on sound files.
Of course lots of these separate applications for fx already exist but they
suffer from
1) being too closed and linked to a reduced using protocol, problem that
MSP can avoid because it's open.
2) being non standard, problem that should be partly solved by the VST
pluggin standard, at least for realtime processing.

So what I beleive should be done, is creating an opened max run application
which allows anyone to transform soundfiles without necessarily using a
sequencer and to add bits to it.

The problem with the GRM system is at the moment that it doesn't seem
compatible with pluggo VST pluggins because of the structure of the
installation.

On the other hand the VST~ and pluggo objects are too basic and don't seem
to run all the VST commercial pluggins.

I have made a few tests of this but alhough I'm not a beginner in max, I'm
not a programmer either.
The specifications of such an interface could be described

Yours
Roland Cahen

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:00:33 +0200
From:Georg Hajdu <hajdu@UNI-MUENSTER.DE>
Subject: Oops

> in M=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?= nster

Sorry, this actually means: Muenster (a university town North of the Ruhr
area).

Georg Hajdu

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:56:02 -0700
From:"Ben \\\"Jacobs\\\"" <random@WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: Eliminating Mac boot-up sound?

Catching up on last week's mesgs:

How about making sure that the power amp(s) and mac are connected to the
same power source... and then figuring out a way to delay the startup of
the amp(s)?

Or same idea, but use a huge old tube amp which will warm up so slowly
that you miss the startup sound anyhow? ,-)


Best,

-ben

--
Matt Wright wrote:
>
> From: Matt Wright (matt@cnmat.berkeley.edu)
>
> I'm using Max for an installation that will run for many years, and budget and
> other constraints force me to use Sound Manager and the Mac's built-in audio
> output.
>
> My problem is that I have to assume the Mac will restart some time (like after
> a power failure), and it would be pretty bad to hear that luscious boot-up
> chord come blasting through the speakers.
>
> Anybody know how to make a Mac not make this sound when it boots?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Matt

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:42:02 -0800
From:Peter Washburn <spambait@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: dynamic level to MIDI data?

At the following URL you can find some objects written by Miller Puckette
that can be used to accomplish your goal. They require tweaking for each
individual situation, but they are quite powerful if you take the time to
learn how to use them.

http://www-crca.ucsd.edu/~tapel/software.html

good luck...

Peter Washburn


-----------------------------

Date:Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:42:00 -0500
From:chriso <chriso@RIPCO.COM>
Subject: dynamic level to MIDI data?

Newbie question:

Is it possible to create a patch that would convert (in realtime) audio
levels to MIDI data? Is it possible to analyze a realtime audio waveform's
frequency, and create MIDI from this?

ChrisO

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:44:04 -0400
From:sean paul zitello <spazello@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: video sampling

ground up in MAX: forget it, its a MIDI router not
a graphics engine.
vidvox: still too young, doesnt really do anything
yet
x<>pose, they promise more in 1.5 but when???


impossible to manage but great for throwaway
shows, watch out for "buffered" hits too, plenty
versitile.
image/ine: demod it but havn't really used it.
nato0.55 etc....the best engine but you have
manage yourself.

in general graphics on Mac are slow and behind the
times except for the highest end machines.
I'd suggest using minimum of two computers, one
for video and the other for MIDI. If you want
QTMusical Instruments add a third. the point is
these are single task machines.

sean paul zitello

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:21:28 -0400
From:Christopher Murtagh <chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: AES '99

Greetings MAXers,

I'm going to be in NY for AES '99 and was wondering if anyone else here
was. I'm always into meeting new people (especially MAX and Mac people :),
anyone interested in a MAX list meet? I've never been to NY city before,
so I wouldn't have a clue where to meet. Any NY residents interested who
might know of a good spot? Anyone else interested?

Cheers,

Chris

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:06:01 -0400
From:Jeff Brown <jeffb@AMNH.ORG>
Subject: pitch to MIDI

> Is it possible to create a patch that would convert (in
> realtime)
> audio
> levels to MIDI data? Is it possible to analyze a realtime
> audio waveform's
> frequency, and create MIDI from this?

I forgot the punchline:I don't think you could do it in software as
high-level as Max. The Axon uses neural networcking;the others use a
ton of fancy signal processing and analysis;all of them have to work
dedicated chips very hard to get within what musicians consider
reasonable latency. You're just a few years ahead of your time . . .

--Jeff

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:51:07 -0400
From:Jeff Brown <jeffb@AMNH.ORG>
Subject: Pitch to MIDI

[This message was supposed to have arrived *before* my other one today.
If the other one doesn't make sense, read this first, then try it
again. Sorry guys!]

> Is it possible to create a patch that would
convert (in


> realtime)
> audio
> levels to MIDI data? Is it possible to analyze a
realtime
> audio
> waveform's
> frequency, and create MIDI from this?

That's really difficult. Most real-world,
non-musical signals currently
defy real-time pitch analysis. If you're playing
guitar, it can be done
in real time with a latency of about half a cycle
(near the middle of
the fretboard) by the best MIDI converter box, the
Axon AX100, which
costs about $900. There are cheaper, slower
things from Roland and
Yamaha.

There are, I believe, pitch converters for
specific monophonic
instruments (voices, horns), but I'm not familiar
with any myself.

--Jeff

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:31:13 +0100
From:Lawrence Casserley <leo@CHILTERN.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: MIDI / msp timing problem

>i am still dealing with my MIDI / msp timing problem. David Z. wrote me
>that he does not know exactly why there is so much random delay between
>MIDI
and MSP but he will have a look at it later this year. I am
>wondering how other people on the list are dealing with this issue ?
>doesn`t it matter for you ? is no one using midi + max + msp ???????? does
>no one produce rhythmical / dance music with this setup ? are you all
>re-recording every track into protools and editing every single event ???? =

Yes, this does seem to be a problem - let me tell you a story - I hope
I'll keep it short.

With my colleage, flautist Simon Desorgher, I do many performances of
music for flute and computer. We like to introduce lighter elements into
our concerts and we conceived the idea of playing Pachelbel's famous
"Canon on a Ground" as a little 'party piece'. This involves the flautist
recording the ground into a sample, which is pitch shifted down one
octave, then the ground is looped while the flautist plays the canon into
a delay system.

I knocked up a quick and dirty patch on the ISPW in about half an hour.
The player has a footswitch which is pressed at the beginning of playing
the ground and released at the end. Down starts recording the sample and
starts a timer, up sets the time as a loop time to play the sample,
triggers the play, sets the delay times and enables delay input.

It works perfectly on the ISPW, but on the Mac it sems impossible to get
it right - the delays never line up properly with the loop.

Ah, I thought, latency problems -I can solve that with offsets in the
delay times. No! Offsets which work sometimes do not work other times -
start the program again and get a different result. I don't want to spend
a lot of time on this - it is just a bit of fun - but it is symptomatic
of other problems.


Hmmmmmm........maybe Sukandar's hardware solution is the answer? :-)>

The problem (I guess) is that MacOS is simply too likely tohave arcane
business of its own that can't be pre-empted by msp - I spent enough time
back in the 80s messing with real-time OSs to know how tricky priority
systems can be. MacOS (like most OSs) isn't a real time OS - it has other
priorities, which aren'tcompatible with real-time work - maybe when we
get the 500GHz G17 it won't be a problem - but now..........

Best

Lawrence

--
Lawrence Electronic Operations - Tel +44 1494 481381 - FAX +44 1494 481454
Signal Processing for Contemporary Music - email leo@chiltern.demon.co.uk
http://www.chiltern.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:52:38 +0200
From:Peter Castine <pcastine@PRZ.TU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: pitch to MIDI

On around 19-8-99 21:06, Jeff Brown, quoting someone whose name I've
forgotten, said something like:

>> Is it possible to create a patch that would convert (in
>> realtime)
>> audio
>> levels to MIDI data?
[schnipp]
>
>I forgot the punchline:
I don't think you could do it in software as
>high-level as Max.
[schnipp again]

Actually, it's not at all hard to create a patch that will convert audio
data to MIDI in real time.


The question is: does the MIDI have anything at all to do with what your
ear and brain are busy analyzing as fundamental frequencies?

The answer is (and this is, I suspect, Jeff's punchline): Probably not
very much.


Cheers,

Peter


PS: Actually, a MSP patch that converts audio data into MIDI might give
you something _far_ more interesting than what's coming in over audio, so
I'd go for it!-)

----------------- http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~pcastine/-----------------
Dr. Peter Castine| I am very pleased to announce that the
4-15 Music & Technology| 26th International Computer Music Conference
| will take place in Berlin in the year 2000.
| We look forward to seeing you here!

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:52:35 +0200
From:Peter Castine <pcastine@PRZ.TU-BERLIN.DE>


Subject: Re: Oops

On around 19-8-99 15:00, Georg Hajdu said something like:

>> in M=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?= nster
>
>Sorry, this actually means: Muenster (a university town North of the Ruhr
>area).

Yeah, but that was obvious.

(Seriously: when you start getting e-mail from East Asia, _then_ you
start finding all this ISO-8859-1 stuff positively translucent!-)

FTR: The name of the German university town north of the Ruhr Valley came
through fine to those who are getting Max mail non-pre-digested.


Cheers,

Bide

----------------- http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~pcastine/-----------------
Dr. Peter Castine| I am very pleased to announce that the
4-15 Music & Technology| 26th International Computer Music Conference
| will take place in Berlin in the year 2000.
| We look forward to seeing you here!

------------------------------

Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:52:40 +0200
From:Peter Castine <pcastine@PRZ.TU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: fft~ amplitude range

On around 19-8-99 9:49, Benjamin Thigpen said something like:

>What's Eulers Constant?

Euler's Constant (aka Mascheroni's constant) is the limit (as n goes to
infinity) of

1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5 + ... + 1/n - log n.

It is often denoted by the lower-case Greek letter gamma and is
approximately

0.5772156649015328606065120900824024310421593359399235988057672348848677267
776646709369470632917467495146314472498070824809605040144865428362241739976
4492353625350033374293733773767394279259525824709491600873520394816567


Interestingly, I gather it has not yet been determined whether or not the
constant is rational. But it's been calculated to a million digits, so
the above is _not_ showing off!


Cheers,

Peter

----------------- http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~pcastine/-----------------
Dr. Peter Castine| I am very pleased to announce that the
4-15 Music & Technology| 26th International Computer Music Conference
| will take place in Berlin in the year 2000.
| We look forward to seeing you here!

------------------------------


Date:Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:03:43 +0200
From:Jeffrey Burns <jeff@BERLIN.SNAFU.DE>
Subject: dynamic level to MIDI data

>
>Is it possible to create a patch that would convert (in realtime) audio
>levels to MIDI data? Is it possible to analyze a realtime audio waveform's
>frequency, and create MIDI from this?

Just getting the dynamic level is no sweat using a meter~ object,
whose output you can multiply by 127.0. Recognizing the frequency is
more complicated. My friend Stefan Tiedje loaned me his old Fairvoice
Vocoder (a piece of hardware from Australia, which he wouldn't sell
for anything), which did just that. The program StudioVision Pro also
has a function that converts audio to midi, but not in real time. Of
course, both these alternatives are designed for monophonic input,
but I've pumped complicated electroacoustic music into them, getting
wild results. I think you could get a rather exact midi output from a
simple audio signal using the _fiddle~_ object (availible on Max
support sites), followed by _+0.5_, _int_ and _change_ to give you
the note-ons. The note-offs would come from _meter~_, _*-100.0_,and
_past_ for rests and some other string of objects to provide a
note-off every time a new note comes. You'll have to "fiddle" around
with it.

Jeff Burns


http://www.snafu.de/~jeff

------------------------------

End of MAX Digest - 18 Aug 1999 to 19 Aug 1999 - Special issue (#1999-247)
**************************************************************************