Subject: MAX Digest - 26 Jul 1999 to 27 Jul 1999 (#1999-224)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 00:00:25 -0400
From:
Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
Reply-To: chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA
To: Recipients of MAX digests <MAX@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>


There are 13 messages totalling 675 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. collab via net
  2. Resent mail....
  3. MSP: how to playback lists of SFs (3)
  4. OT: USB - MIDI experiences? (3)
  5. 2 button mouse (3)
  6. Message from admin, please read
  7. 3.5.9-9 and old MSP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:54:46 -0800
From:anechoic audio engine <anechoic@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: collab via net

I'm planning a collaboration with another Max user...can someone point me
to some patches/objects that send/receive data via the net?
thanks in advance!
KIM

__________________________
kim.cascone
sound.designer...composer

kim@anechoicmedia.com
http://www.anechoicmedia.com

full length:: blueCube( ) (Rastermusic)
comp track:: nb2e_Vortex.aiff (Mille Plateaux)
comp track:: vortexShedding (Caipirinha Music)
full length:: cathodeFlower (Ritornell/Mille Plateaux)

"the medium is no longer the message, the tool has become the message"
"the smooth always posseses a greater power of deterritorialization than
the striated."

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:44:22 -0400
From:Christopher Murtagh <chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Resent mail....

Bob-

Sorry, I can't resist. Your message sounds awfully like a doomsday
scenario. If hadn't had that same trouble myself--without *any*
consequences--I would be totally scared and I would probably never touch
my computer again. I recommend you get a little more specific (e.g. about
ambigious ways to store tables) before you scare the hell out of poor
e-mail recipients.

Best,

Georg

***************************************************


Dr. Georg Hajdu

Hochschule f=FCr Musik Detmold,
Abteilung M=FCnster
Ludgeriplatz 1
D-48151 Muenster

e-mail: hajdu@uni-muenster.de
http://www.mhs-muenster.de/Hajdu.html
****************************************************


----------

> Date:Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:32:30 EDT
> From:
Bob Ostertag <BOstertag@AOL.COM>
> Subject: Dafna Naphtali's missing toolbat
>
> Dafna,
>
> you are in real trouble. I had this problem several times. I lost several
> performances to it, the contents of 2 hard disks, and uncountable hours.
>
> my troubles actually continued until the direct (and as always gracious)
> intervention of David Z. So if David is reading this, note that Dafna's
> symptoms sound exactly like mine. I hope David can tell you where the source
> of the problem is, as I cannot remember exactly (it is many months ago). BUt
> it had somthing to do with how you save tables in a particular version of
> Max. If you save the table in an ambiguous way, when you try to reopen it,
> then all hell breaks loose. But I sure David will have a better explanation.
>
Also, terre is a fix, since I have not had the problem since I did some
> upgrade months ago.
>
> Sorry to be vague, I am only writing to tell you to ask David, but also to
> tell you that in my experience the only thing will SURELY get you right is to
> reformat your drive, reinstall your system, and reinstall Max + MSP.
>
> Maybe David will have better news.
>
> sorry
> i sympathize,
> Bob Ostertag

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:06:56 +0300
From:Tom Mays <tmays@HOL.GR>
Subject: Re: MSP: how to playback lists of SFs

>I am trying to learn MSP (been through the tutorials several times,
>experimented, etc.) but I am having conceptual problems with simple things
>like making a patcher which can play back any one of say, 200 sound files.
>The best I've come up with uses play~ with a coll changing the buffer and a
>random number generator -which works, albeit with ticks at the beginning of
>each sound file. I'd like to end up with two such patchers (just one dac~
>for both patches?) with some control over filtering, volume, panning etc. I
>seem to be having trouble with the different "open" or "read" requirements
>for groove~ or sfplay~. Groove~ seems like the most flexible choice but how
>can it pull from many sound files? My confused questions reveal a confused
>mind!


Well, if you want to playback 200 soundfiles I definitely recommend sfplay~
(unless you have huge amounts of ram that you don't know what to do with
:))
Or, of course, unless you want to playback the files at different speeds...


Anyway, here's a patch that shows two ways of using sfplay~ - one where the
files are opened the moment you play them (which doesn't have as much delay as
one might think, and is light years away from the 2 seconds of the old NeXT
ISPW
readsf~).
The second way is by preloading the soundfiles (in case you get too much delay
with the first method).

By the way, groove~ can easily be set to different buffer~ names with the "set"
message.

here, then, is "soundfileplayer"...

max v2;
#N vpatcher 19 54 900 754;
#P comment 130 199 116 196617 <- just click here to play the 10 files randomly;
#P comment 413 31 283 196620 preloading method \; Uses the same coll file
as first method \; - once to preload and once to extract the volumes when
each file plays \; On a G3 266 the difference in access time with the first
method is "very" slight \; In my opinion preloading is not necessary for
most sfplay~ applications \, if you have a fast computer and fast disk
access.;
#P newex 609 319 30 196617 sel 1;
#P newex 609 352 59 196617 pack open s;
#P newex 609 299 63 196617 i;
#P newex 609 278 111 196617 t b s;
#P newex 671 352 112 196617 sprintf preload %ld %s;
#P newex 609 257 45 196617 unpack s;
#P message 631 211 31 196617 dump;
#N coll soundfiles;
#T flags 1 0;
#T 1 soundfile1 1.;
#T 2 soundfile2 0.95;
#T 3 soundfile3 0.9;
#T 4 soundfile4 1.;
#T 5 soundfile5 0.65;
#T 6 soundfile6 1.;
#T 7 soundfile7 0.75;
#T 8 soundfile8 1.;
#T 9 soundfile9 0.8;
#T 10 soundfile1 1.;
#P newobj 631 230 72 196617 coll soundfiles;
#P comment 705 225 97 196617 <- [soundfile name] [volume 0. to 1.0];
#P newex 394 452 61 196617 send~ todac;
#P message 340 387 14 196617 0;
#P flonum 466 408 35 9 0 0 0 3;
#P newex 394 431 82 196617 *~;
#P newex 418 346 58 196617 unpack s 0.;
#P number 394 297 35 9 0 0 0 3;
#P button 394 185 31 0;
#P newex 394 277 27 196617 + 1;
#P newex 394 257 55 196617 random 10;
#N coll soundfiles;
#T flags 1 0;
#T 1 soundfile1 1.;
#T 2 soundfile2 0.95;
#T 3 soundfile3 0.9;
#T 4 soundfile4 1.;
#T 5 soundfile5 0.65;
#T 6 soundfile6 1.;
#T 7 soundfile7 0.75;
#T 8 soundfile8 1.;
#T 9 soundfile9 0.8;
#T 10 soundfile1 1.;
#P newobj 418 321 72 196617 coll soundfiles;
#N sfplay~1 16384;
#P newobj 394 403 42 196617 sfplay~;


#P comment 492 316 97 196617 <- [soundfile name] [volume 0. to 1.0];
#P comment 314 374 69 196617 stop playback;
#P newex 122 569 75 196617 receive~ todac;
#P newex 122 447 61 196617 send~ todac;
#P message 44 379 14 196617 0;
#P message 98 379 14 196617 1;
#P toggle 43 544 49 0;
#P newex 112 594 29 196617 dac~;
#P flonum 192 400 35 9 0 0 0 3;
#P newex 122 426 80 196617 *~;
#P newex 122 338 80 196617 unpack s 0.;
#P newex 122 365 65 196617 prepend open;
#P number 122 295 35 9 0 0 0 3;
#P button 98 197 31 0;
#P newex 122 275 27 196617 + 1;
#P newex 122 255 55 196617 random 10;
#N coll soundfiles;
#T flags 1 0;
#T 1 soundfile1 1.;
#T 2 soundfile2 0.95;
#T 3 soundfile3 0.9;
#T 4 soundfile4 1.;
#T 5 soundfile5 0.65;
#T 6 soundfile6 1.;
#T 7 soundfile7 0.75;
#T 8 soundfile8 1.;
#T 9 soundfile9 0.8;
#T 10 soundfile1 1.;
#P newobj 122 313 72 196617 coll soundfiles;
#N sfplay~1 16384;
#P newobj 122 395 42 196617 sfplay~;
#P comment 196 308 97 196617 <- [soundfile name] [volume 0. to 1.0];
#P comment 10 544 32 196617 start and stop audio;
#P comment 18 366 69 196617 stop playback;
#P comment 638 375 100 196617 the first one needs to be "open"ed \, the
others need to be "preload"ed...;
#P comment 63 66 219 196620 simplest method \; open each soundfile as you
want to play it. Doesn't require "preloading". There will be a slight delay
\, depending on disk access speed. On my system this delay is almost
negligeable.;
#P comment 631 185 100 196617 fisrt click here to preload;
#P comment 430 185 166 196617 <- second click here to play the 10 files
randomly;
#P comment 512 444 314 196617 Notes \; Put 10 soundfiles named soundfile1 -
soundfile10 into same folder as this patcher (or change the manes in the
coll \, of course) \; \; Here 10 files were used. There could be hundreds
\; \; The advantage over using buffers and play~ or groove~ is that you're
not limited by ram \; The disadvantage is that you're not going to get as
many playing as once (try on your system to see how many) \, nor will you
be able to change the playback speed \; \; note: using send~ and receive~
to use one dac~ for different sources - these could be in different
patchers \; \; Here the coll contents are [soundfile name] [volume 0. to
1.0] \; You could very easily add panning and filter parameters to each
line and unpack accordingly - this left as an excercise for the reader :);
#P connect 12 0 20 0;
#P connect 23 0 18 0;
#P connect 19 0 18 0;
#P connect 12 0 10 0;
#P connect 10 0 11 0;
#P connect 11 0 13 0;
#P connect 13 0 9 0;
#P connect 9 0 15 0;
#P connect 15 0 14 0;
#P connect 21 0 8 0;
#P connect 20 0 8 0;
#P connect 14 0 8 0;
#P connect 8 0 16 0;


#P connect 16 0 22 0;
#P connect 23 0 18 1;
#P connect 15 1 17 0;
#P connect 17 0 16 1;
#P connect 30 0 28 0;
#P connect 28 0 29 0;
#P connect 29 0 31 0;
#P connect 31 0 26 0;
#P connect 41 0 26 0;
#P connect 44 0 26 0;
#P connect 35 0 26 0;
#P connect 26 0 33 0;
#P connect 33 0 36 0;
#P connect 31 0 27 0;
#P connect 27 0 32 0;
#P connect 32 1 34 0;
#P connect 34 0 33 1;
#P connect 38 0 40 0;
#P connect 40 0 42 0;
#P connect 42 0 43 0;
#P connect 43 0 45 0;
#P connect 45 0 44 0;
#P connect 39 0 38 0;
#P connect 42 1 44 1;
#P connect 38 1 43 1;
#P connect 45 1 41 0;
#P connect 42 1 41 1;
#P pop;

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:51:19 +0000
From:John Phillips <jpch@TERRAGIZMO.NET>
Subject: OT: USB - MIDI experiences?

Good day-

I'm setting up my new Lombard and OMS is asking for some kind of life of
it's own...what's the group's experience with USB MIDI devices? Are there
any in use and working? As it would be fun to use my serial printer at some
point, how about USB to serial adapters and then on to a serial MIDI box? I
just need a simple MIDI rig. 1in 2 out kinda thing...

Thanks for any advice,

John

...............
....................................
John Phillips / sound artist: http://terragizmo.net

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:23:44 -0400
From:EUGENE MARTYNEC <euclid@YESIC.COM>
Subject: 2 button mouse

Any one know of a 2 or more button mouse I could use with Max? I'm rewriting
portions of Emile Tobenfeld's "Midi-ax" originally for the Atari to the Mac
platform. It is possible to initiate 2 mouse gestures simultaneously with 2
mouse buttons on the Atari. I have a large repertoire I perform live with
using Midi-ax and the availability of two gestures being active with one
hand is something I use very often . I was hoping not to give that up.
Thanks in advance.

Eugene Martynec


------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:21:09 -0400
From:Christopher Murtagh <chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: OT: USB - MIDI experiences?

Hi Folks, i want to share my experience concerning timing MIDI vs. MSP:
I am using a sequenzer written in MAX to trigger a bunch of audiomodules (
samplers, synthsizers..) realised in MSP on the same machine ( a blue G3
desktop via Motu 2408 ). I am also using OMS and a Studio 4 to send notes
to MIDI stuff. ( via a gPort interface to connect the Studio 4 to the G3 ).
I have an I/O and Signal Vector Size of 64.
Theoreticaly this means a time grain of 1.45 ms . In fact i have some
timing variation about 5ms up to 10ms ...
This is not soooo bad as long as i stay within MSP or using only MIDI
because at least two or more events which should appear simultaniously do
so.
BUT: even with the most simple max sequenzer ( metro -> table -> noteout
and a play~ object ) i got random delays between MIDI and MSPup to 10ms
for events which should appear at the same time.
I did not find any workaround to get a better timing.
This is pretty hard and much much more then the most oldfashioned midi
software /hardware...
( It does not prevent me from making music anyway, but...)

rob.


...................................................
MONOLAKE
the secret life of digital music
http://www.monolake.de
.................................................

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:01:17 -0400
From:Christopher Murtagh <chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Message from admin, please read

Greetings Maxers,

A couple of things regarding posting to the MAX list:

You all might have noticed that the 'Reply-to' field is now set to me and
no longer the list. This is due to security reasons for the listserv
software, and hopefully temporary (I'm looking into setting it back to the
list). In the meanwhile, you might have to change the 'To' field when
replying to someone else's post. Otherwise, I have to bounce the message
to the listserv before confirming, and it ends up looking like the message
was from me and not the original sender. Like I said, I'm hoping that this
is just temporary, and I apologize for any inconveniences.

For reference sake, the email address to post to the listserv is:
<max@lists.mcgill.ca>.


Regarding Subject lines:

Please don't use subject lines like:"Re: MAX Digest - 25 Jul 1999 to 26
Jul 1999 (#1999-223)". This just makes it really difficult for sorting and
archiving as well as inconvenient for people who are in digest mode (the
majority). For the most part, this hasn't been a big problem, but I have
had a number of people ask me to mention it.

Regarding Quotes:


Please keep quoting to a minimum, and don't re-post the entire message
you are replying to if it is not necessary. Again, for the most part this
hasn't been a problem, except for the occasional entire digest quote
(mostly just by mistake). Other than saving bandwidth, this also makes it
easier for archiving and for people in digest mode.

Other than that, I think things are running pretty smoothly. If things
aren't so smooth for you, please don't hesitate to email me at
chris@music.mcgill.ca.

Sincerely,

Christopher Murtagh
MAX listserv admin

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:12:51 -0700
From:David Zicarelli <zicarell@CYCLING74.COM>
Subject: 3.5.9-9 and old MSP

I've been hearing a fair number of complaints about a mysterious
bug that occurs with Max 3.5.9-9 and revisions of MSP previous
to the current one (1.0 revision 6.1). The problem is that
when loading the computer will appear to freeze when it gets
to the point (according to the Max window) of opening MSP.

However, pressing the escape key or command-period will allow
Max to continue loading. After that, MSP may or may not be in
demo mode.

One of our smarter users noted that this is probably due to
a dialog box that has appeared off-screen. Since I have not
been able to reproduce the problem, I can't really say what's
going on, but I have a few theories (all of which relate to
copy protection) that I won't bore you with now.

In any event, updating to MSP revision 6.1 has fixed the
problem in all cases.

David Z.

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:13:41 -0400
From:Christopher Murtagh <chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: 2 button mouse

From: Kevin Walker <kevin@suwa.org>

>Any one know of a 2 or more button mouse I could use with Max? I'm rewriting
>portions of Emile Tobenfeld's "Midi-ax" originally for the Atari to the Mac
>platform. It is possible to initiate 2 mouse gestures simultaneously with 2
>mouse buttons on the Atari. I have a large repertoire I perform live with
>using Midi-ax and the availability of two gestures being active with one
>hand is something I use very often . I was hoping not to give that up.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Eugene Martynec

Both Logitech (3 button) and Kensington (4 button) allow you to map
mouse buttons to modifier keys (shift, control, cmd, etc.). In
conjunction with the "modifer" ("modifiers"?) max object (which
detects when shift, control, etc. is depressed), you should be able
distinguish two different types of mouse gesture.

------------------------------


Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:14:08 -0400
From:Christopher Murtagh <chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: 2 button mouse

From: Stonewall Ballard <sb.list@sb.org>

At 12:23 PM -0400 7/27/99, EUGENE MARTYNEC wrote:
>Any one know of a 2 or more button mouse I could use with Max? I'm rewriting
>portions of Emile Tobenfeld's "Midi-ax" originally for the Atari to the Mac
>platform. It is possible to initiate 2 mouse gestures simultaneously with 2
>mouse buttons on the Atari. I have a large repertoire I perform live with
>using Midi-ax and the availability of two gestures being active with one
>hand is something I use very often . I was hoping not to give that up.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Eugene Martynec

Many Kensington mice have two buttons. You can program the 2nd button
to press a modifier key like control, so that it works well with
contextual menus, but you can also make that application-specific.

I use Kensington Orbit trackballs with two buttons on all my computers.

- Stoney
---------------------------------------------------
Stonewall BallardStonetics, Inc.
sb@stonetics.comhttp://www.stonetics.com/

------------------------------

Date:Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:16:25 +1000
From:Garth Paine <garth@ACTIVATEDSPACE.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: OT: USB - MIDI experiences?

Hi John,

> USB MIDI devices? Are there
>any in use and working?

My understanding is that the USB-Serial interfaces don;t do any
timing stuff, so don;t work woth MIDI.

Cheers,

Garth

Check out some of the tracks off my new CD at http://www.activatedspace.com.au
,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
Activated Space
. Composer, Sound Designer, Installation Artist
.. Interactives Designer, Exhibition Consultant
........ph. 61 3 95720133
garth@activatedspace.com.au

.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:41:24 -0400
From:Kurt Ralske <kurtralske@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: MSP: how to playback lists of SFs

>I am trying to learn MSP (been through the tutorials several times,
>experimented, etc.) but I am having conceptual problems with simple things
>like making a patcher which can play back any one of say, 200 sound files.


You could have a dedicated buffer~ for each soundfile (assuming you have
enough RAM!). If you give each buffer~ the same name as the soundfile
and also use the name as an argument (ex: buffer~=3Dcw4t7abs
=3Dcw4t7abs),
this gives you two benefits:

1) the soundfiles load automatically when you load the patch
2) you can tell a groove~ or play~ object to access any of the files via
a menu
of all of your file names (put a "prepend set" between the menu and
groove~).
Also, if you send ints to the menu -- voila! -- instant access of any
soundfile.

>The best I've come up with uses play~ with a coll changing the buffer and a
>random number generator -which works, albeit with ticks at the beginning of
>each sound file.

I've had some success with an envelope of 0, 1 5 into a line~ controlling
level --
it "ducks"the click transient.

Kurt Ralske

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:32:36 -0400
From:Garth Paine <garth@ACTIVATEDSPACE.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: MSP: how to playback lists of SFs

here is my effort with the sfplay~ object. I used a patch like this
with several lists and play objects and found it very stable.

-------------------------
max v2;
#N vpatcher 41 83 686 516;
#P comment 4 207 241 196617 sflist~ stores a list of preloaded cues
for sound files that can be accessed by multiple sfplay~ objects.
Each sflist~ object has a unique name that sfplay~ objects use to
refer to its cues. Defining a cue is the same for sflist~ as for
sfplay~. You can preload cues for sflist~ without the audio being on.;
#P message 429 182 45 196617 sounds 6;
#P message 429 202 45 196617 sounds 7;
#P message 429 222 45 196617 sounds 8;
#N sflist~ sounds 0;
#P newobj 43 184 71 196617 sflist~ sounds;
#P message 106 160 45 196617 embed 1;
#P message 72 94 65 196617 preload file4;
#P message 63 78 65 196617 preload file3;
#P message 55 63 65 196617 preload file2;
#P message 43 47 65 196617 preload file1;
#P message 82 111 65 196617 preload file5;
#P message 90 126 65 196617 preload file6;
#P message 96 142 65 196617 preload file7;
#P newex 448 73 45 196617 pipe 200;
#P message 448 53 14 196617 1;
#P newex 448 12 45 196617 loadbang;
#P button 448 34 15 0;
#P message 310 241 45 196617 sounds 5;
#P message 310 222 45 196617 sounds 4;
#P message 310 202 45 196617 sounds 3;
#P message 310 182 45 196617 sounds 2;
#P message 520 228 14 196617 1;
#P message 398 211 14 196617 1;
#P comment 492 318 71 196617 signal out Ch 1;
#P message 483 253 28 196617 open;
#N sfplay~ garth 1 16384;


#P newobj 483 298 81 196617 sfplay~ garth 1;
#B color 4;
#P toggle 520 253 15 0;
#P toggle 585 307 15 0;
#P toggle 398 236 15 0;
#N sfplay~ garth 1 16384;
#P newobj 366 300 78 196617 sfplay~ garth 1;
#B color 4;
#P message 366 246 28 196617 open;
#P comment 375 320 71 196617 signal out Ch 1;
#P newex 395 401 29 196617 dac~;
#P comment 11 20 210 196617 These files are loaded and then embeded
into the sflist~ object;
#P comment 89 321 232 196617 sfplay~ can connect to the cues defined
in an sflist~ object. Since multiple sfplay~ objects can reference
the same sflist~ \, this allows you to store a global list of cues.;
#P comment 268 154 269 196617 clicking on these buttons will play the
sound file stored at that location in the sflist~ object titles
"sounds";
#P comment 496 89 100 196617 Auto turns the dac~ on after 200ms;
#P hidden fasten 23 0 9 0 453 114 590 114;
#P connect 21 0 20 0;
#P fasten 11 0 4 1 488 350 419 350;
#P fasten 7 0 4 0 371 348 400 348;
#P fasten 10 0 11 0 525 280 488 280;
#P fasten 9 0 4 0 590 368 400 368;
#P fasten 8 0 7 0 403 272 371 272;
#P hidden connect 35 0 11 0;
#P hidden connect 34 0 11 0;
#P hidden connect 33 0 11 0;
#P connect 31 0 32 0;
#P connect 30 0 32 0;
#P connect 29 0 32 0;
#P connect 28 0 32 0;
#P connect 27 0 32 0;
#P connect 26 0 32 0;
#P connect 25 0 32 0;
#P connect 24 0 32 0;
#P connect 22 0 23 0;
#P connect 20 0 22 0;
#P hidden connect 19 0 7 0;
#P hidden connect 18 0 7 0;
#P hidden connect 17 0 7 0;
#P hidden connect 16 0 7 0;
#P connect 15 0 10 0;
#P connect 14 0 8 0;
#P connect 12 0 11 0;
#P connect 6 0 7 0;
#P pop;
Cheers,

Garth

Check out some of the tracks off my new CD at http://www.activatedspace.com.au
,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
Activated Space
. Composer, Sound Designer, Installation Artist
.. Interactives Designer, Exhibition Consultant
........ph. 61 3 95720133
garth@activatedspace.com.au

.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.

------------------------------

End of MAX Digest - 26 Jul 1999 to 27 Jul 1999 (#1999-224)
**********************************************************