Subject: MAX Digest - 12 Jul 1999 to 13 Jul 1999 (#1999-209)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:00:06 -0400
From:
Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments <MAX@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>
To: Recipients of MAX digests <MAX@LISTS.MCGILL.CA>


There are 14 messages totalling 591 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. cd object
  2. minor correxion
  3. powerbook 160 (3)
  4. Va et vient : what's the word in Max (2)
  5. Cher Guy
  6. Rolon&rolloff : what's the word in Max
  7. OT: PC Question
  8. Introducing- Lawrence Ball !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  9. sflist~
  10. Re : MAX Digest - 11 Jul 1999 to 12 Jul 1999 (#1999-208)
  11. r3Dview

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:34:15 +0100
From:david stevens <david@RESONANT.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: cd object

hi Todd,

i can't help you with the cd object, i'm afraid, but i can tell you that i had
so many problems with max/msp crashing under 8.6 on my PB G3, (and cubase
runnning slow on my desktop G3) that i've gone back to OS 7.5.1 - end of
problems. Some messages that i've read on the mac-vst list suggest that this
problem may clear up with 8.7; several people there have also gone back to 7.5.1
due to similar problems.

david

Todd wrote:

>I used to use the cd object just fine, but now since "upgrading" to
> OS8.6 it consistenly crashes MAX with the message: unexpectedly quit--error
> type 1.

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:31:45 +0200
From:Guy Van Belle <Guy.VanBelle@RUG.AC.BE>
Subject: minor correxion

> For yourinfo, Guy is back on the list after promising not to forward
> any more antiorp posts. Anyone else who forwards antiorps stuff will be
> removed from this list.
euh minor correction, I promised not to send extensive off topic antiorp
messages, like 129 lines - you see it is unavoidable to have a quote and a
forward like with some explanation of what it is!
That won't break any rule I guess.

An excerpt where I explained how people use e-mail - like forwarding
interesting stuff to others etc - hey this is about information exchange
and that goes fast, you cannot read the manual and rule-list, ask for
permission, and edit originals - it is a roulette and it spins fast!

(email to cm)


you know, this medium is fast - I tap f and max and ctrl-x
and it is gone! but that is of course the nice feature of it
and also I never do this like quoting part of a mail
I just take the original mail because some people like the
header for quoting later (timestamp and locations) - I am
an academic - sorry - so ... it is hard to avoid habits for
one list that wants it differently so I just forwarded it

so if there is anything interesting around in the future, from anybody
really whoever that is, mao, carlos, khadhafi, clinton, khameini etc and
it is about max (yes I heard they were all subscribed & opcode users) I
will forward it but not exceed one screen unless it is appropriate.
More importantly I will read it through and try to avoid offensive
statements by not sending them to THIS list and put "parential advisory"
or something in the header for the other lists. Isn't that a more
realistic rule? I do think that we cannot bend general ways in which most
of the people behave with information online, and I am saying this to
protect other people for future actions/reactions - either because they
don't know the rules or because they don't care.
Of course i want to be part of this list because I love max & msp and many
other things being discussed here. But no one has to put up limitations
like this person is allowed and the other not, this is ridiculous and
cannot be maintained in the long run - you cannot check the "imprimatur"
list before posting! Churches have done this before, and certain political
groups as well, and it never worked. Around the world there are a lot of
different bans on certain people in the media for various reasons, and I
believe the antiorp case on the max-l is one of them unfortunately. So
for the time being it is perfectly ok with me to be "lurking" on this list
by force because I don't agree with the policies. Though I must admit it
is strange. And I don't think we should further discuss it, I promised
Chris to be a good boy (rolling in pain). Now I am off on holidays and
hope to do some max-ing on my way back. Full stop.

Guy

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:33:56 +0200
From:Peter Castine <pcastine@PRZ.TU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: powerbook 160

On around 13-7-99 1:25, Ben Nevile said something like:

>I asked a question a while back about low budget laptops that can handle Max,
>and now I need the list's considerable Mac expertise to help me assess the
>value
>and usefulness of a particular machine. I have the opportunity to purchase a
>powerbook 160 (68030, 25Mhz, 10 MB ram, system 7.5.3) for about $250
>Canadian.
>A good deal? Does Max's timing suffer on these older machines? With only
>10MB
>of ram, will patch complexity be an issue?

10 MB RAM on a 68k machine will go a reasonably long way.

As a data point, I did quite a bit of Max stuff on an SE/30 w/8MB,
running what I think were moderately complex patches. And that was a
16MHz clock.

No MSP, of course, but you knew that. Keep your extensions down to a
minimum and Max ought to have enough breathing space. Mind you, when I
had the SE/30, it was the early 90s and Max was at 2.5.whatever. Max
3.5.8 requires just under 4MB as a minimum partition, whereas early
versions got away with about half of that (IMS).

If no one can provide more concrete information, I'll see if I can get my
kid to drag our IIfx out of mothballs and install Max to see how much


memory it needs. I'd be happy to do it, but probably won't get around to
it before ICMC.


Hope this helps,

Peter

----------------- http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~pcastine/-----------------
Dr. Peter Castine| I am very pleased to announce that the
4-15 Music & Technology| 26th International Computer Music Conference
| will take place in Berlin in the year 2000.
| We look forward to seeing you here!

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:30:50 +0100
From:Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green <cahen.sefton.green@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: Va et vient : what's the word in Max

I've tried without succès to find out the simplest way for switching two
toggles complementarily : Va et vient en français (what's the word in
English ?)
Can someone give me the answer ?

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:16:31 +0100
From:Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green <cahen.sefton.green@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: Re: Cher Guy

>Cher roland - est-ce qu'on se connait? Je me ne souviens pas votre nom -
>excuse-moi. Mais il s'agit d'un forward du antiorp. Il/elle a faut un tres
>bon programme - il faut la voir! Pour tout ca je suis excommunique du
>liste ce qui est tres injuste! Ce n'est pas parce que quelqu'un parle
>differemment de l'autres qu'il faut se venger ... en cas d'antiorp, c'est
>tres stupide qu'il/elle est mis en dehors parce que c'est un(e) artiste
>tres integre et honnete et avec plus de capacites que beaucoup d'autres.
>Je le/la supporte contre la stupidite collective.
>Salut,
>Guy
>

Merci, je crois tout à fait ce que vous écrivez, j'irai visiter le site et
essaierai le programme,
Je crois qu'on s'est rencontré au FIMU à Belfort, mais peut-être je me trompe.
Excusez moi !
En ce qui concerne Antiorp, je n'ai jamais réussi à voir ses travaux
apparement trop lourds pour ma connexion ou ma machine ou
incompréhensibles, mais j'essaierai à nouveau.
En tout cas sa notoriété n'a pas souffert de tout le bazar qu'il a fait et
de la réaction des autres.
Faut-il que j'en fasse autant pour me faire connaitre ?
C'est peut être une idée!
;-)
Rol en K haine

En ce qui concerne le fait que vous soyez radié de la liste à votre tour,
je désaprouve.

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:22:18 -0600
From:Kevin Walker <kwalker@XMISSION.COM>
Subject: Re: Va et vient : what's the word in Max

>I've tried without succ=E8s to find out the simplest way for switching two

>toggles complementarily : Va et vient en fran=E7ais (what's the word in
>English ?)
>Can someone give me the answer ?

Here are three examples.

max v2;
#N vpatcher 200 218 660 617;
#P newex 252 309 48 196617 print bbb;
#P newex 180 309 48 196617 print aaa;
#P newex 207 267 32 196617 =3D=3D 0;
#P newex 262 266 32 196617 =3D=3D 0;
#P message 255 219 35 196617 set \$1;
#P message 196 220 35 196617 set \$1;
#P toggle 196 244 15 0;
#P toggle 258 243 15 0;
#P toggle 185 48 15 0;
#P newex 205 85 32 196617 =3D=3D 0;
#P toggle 161 118 15 0;
#P toggle 223 117 15 0;
#P newex 68 123 32 196617 =3D=3D 0;
#P toggle 110 92 15 0;
#P toggle 48 93 15 0;
#P connect 0 0 2 0;
#P connect 2 0 1 0;
#P connect 6 0 4 0;
#P connect 6 0 5 0;
#P connect 5 0 3 0;
#P connect 9 0 8 0;
#P connect 12 0 14 0;
#P connect 12 0 10 0;
#P connect 11 0 13 0;
#P connect 11 0 9 0;
#P connect 8 0 13 0;
#P connect 8 0 12 0;
#P connect 7 0 14 0;
#P connect 7 0 11 0;
#P connect 10 0 7 0;
#P pop;

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:00:51 +0100
From:Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green <cahen.sefton.green@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: Rolon&rolloff : what's the word in Max

(I've tried without succès to find out the simplest way for switching two
toggles complementarily : Va et vient en français (what's the word in
English ?)
Can someone give me the answer ?)

Infact what I meant isn't exacly va et vient, which means turn the same
light on and off whichever switch you use in the room.
I rather mean mutual complementarity : for example two leds, a red and a
green; when one turns on the red which was off, it turns on and the green
goes off and reciproqually. The trouble is off course how to get rid of the
loop & the stack overflow break.

Another stupid question by the way : Is ther a way in Max to input or
modify text messages in play mode.

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:44:07 -0700
From:Jaime Heilpern <jamidori@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: OT: PC Question


Sound Cards, Sound Cards, Sound Cards. Laptops have proven to be a
nightmare as far as sound cards for us here trying to make audio related
software. For some reason, there is something strange about the way the on
board chips work. The Toshibas are the biggest offender, I believe. The
ESS chips are not the greatest, either. Some of the Yamaha OPL series are
fairly poor as well. If you find anything by Creative Labs (Sound Blaster)
or anyone using a Crystal Semiconductor chip, you are going to be safe and
lower your chances for tech support and headache. You probably will want
to buy a good sound card anyway.

A few people are coming out with good PCMCIA sound cards like EGO Sys' WaMi
Box. It seems pretty cool and sounds great.

Most important! Do the reseach. Here are web sites that have just about
every sound card listed with some notes/reviews. Unfortunately, Consumer
Reports doesn't do sound cards yet (someone please tell me if they do.)

http://www.seersystems.com/support/soundcard.html
http://www.digitalexperience.com/cards.html

jaime

>Date:Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:31:25 -0400
>From:
Stephen Kay <sk@COMPUSERVE.COM>
>Subject: OT: PC Question
>
>Hello Maxers,
>
>Sorry for the off-topic post. But I know some of you are
>currently dealing with the PC platform as well as Mac in
>your daily work, and you are the most knowledgable group
>I know of.
>
>I am ashamed to admit it, but after years of swearing I would
>never do it, I have decided I need to buy a PC (gasp!) and =
>
>try to port an application I have been developing on the Mac
>to PC.
>
>(Never say never, I guess. I also said I'd never learn
>a programming language. Now I use C/C++. Oh well...)
>
>The question is (knowing nothing whatsoever about PCs):
>
>Can I buy just about any reasonably top-level PC laptop and
>expect it to run programming and PC music applications, or are
>there any features/hardware necessities I need to look out
>for?
>
>Thanks for any private or public replies.
>
>Stephen Kay

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:07:32 +0100
From:Lawrence Ball <Lawrenceball@PLANETTREE.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Introducing- Lawrence Ball !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi listers,

This is to introduce myself.

I have an interest in algorithmically generated sound and music (both audio
and midi), but specifically I invented (with the help of my now ex-students
Michael Tusch and James Larsson) a new kind of mathematics ('harmonic
maths') which has been applied to music, moving abstract graphics and the


combination of both. This work began in 1984 and has been used to generate
scores, computer music and videos. No random numbers need be involved in
harmonic math sequences, it's deterministic rather as chaotic sequences and
the like are. It deals with arrays of variables, each variable going thro'
cycles of values at harmonically related (ie whole number ratio) speeds.

As a composer I feel part of a loose tradition extending conventional
musical aspects (melody, rhythm, harmony, tonal progression.....). In the
computer arena I have an interest to develop this into greater degrees of
virtuosic precision and speed, with a strong mindfulness.

I'm just getting back to active work in computers and algorithms after an
intense spell in the 80s when the software and hardware was not really up
for the ideas.(I ended up writing 6502 and 68000 assembler code).

I developed a series of harmonic-math generated 'timbral transforms' tones
(on an Apple II/Mountain hardware) as healing/deeply relaxing/psychonaut
sounds marketed as ShapeTapes (over 2000 were sold by mail order in the late
80s). These were researched considerably by Alexander
practitioner/counsellor/healer Isobel McGilvray (who was co-author of the
series).

I feel that there is a potential to be realised with computers in music that
goes far beyond a creative convenience (as with sequencers for instance). I
feel it consists of exploiting the utter dexterity available, in a way that
does signal that such a music is superhuman in its performance potential (ie
brilliant nimbleness), but which at the same time is harnessing the presence
and vision of the capacity for amazement, which is a purely human faculty.
The Amerindians (I forget which tribes) have a word which means grace as
well as surpriseand music certainly needs to surprise- if it doesn't do
that to its creator, then I feel its not going to last very long in its
value to the world.

And me? As well as composing music, I love improvising on the piano, am also
a private tutor (in mathematics, physics and music theory) and direct a
contemporary music festival (Planet Tree Music Festival, usually annually,
in London) which mostly features the more tonal, not quite so intellectually
focussed end of the contemporary spectrum (eg Terry Riley, Howard Skempton,
Morton Feldman, Erik Satie, Jean Catoire, .............) and also
presentations by ecological organisations-the next being Nov 2000.

I feel very pleased, awed even, that Max/MSP exists, it seems that the Mac
has only recently reached a point where it looks as solid as it now does,
all credit to David.Z for hanging in there and making so many things
possible.

I look forward to gradual interaction with other max and msp users.

best and musical wishes and patches,

Lawrence.

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:58:19 +0100
From:david stevens <david@RESONANT.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: sflist~

hi all,

one of the things i want to do in my performance next month is to record peoples
impressions of the "installation" the day before, edit choice phrases out, and
then play then from the hard drive into the beginning of one of the loop systems.

i thought that the easiest way to do this would be to prepare the clips as
seperate audio files, and then create an sflist~ and save it with my Patch. All
ok so far i think. I've put the sflist & sfplay objects inside a subpatch.


i'd also like to be able to create different playlists from inside this
subpatch, with different names, that can then be loaded and played by sfplay. It
looks to me that the only way to do this is to create a named sflist object for
each list that i want to have, and have all of these present in the patch when
it is saved, as there doesn't seem to be a way to rename sflist~ as there is
other objects (eg buffer~) (nor a way to save a newly created list).

is this correct or is there an update that'll allow you to change the name of
sflist with a set message or similar, and then save it?

thanks

david

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:17:18 +0100
From:Todor Todoroff <todor.todoroff@SKYNET.BE>
Subject: Re : MAX Digest - 11 Jul 1999 to 12 Jul 1999 (#1999-208)

Hi Ben,
I have a very good experience with a PB180. Of course, it runs at 33MHz, so
it should be about 50% faster.
I used it in a complex interactive installation, running for 6 weeks,
controlling 20 sensors, several samplers, a MARS and about 50 speakers with
havy use of VCAs automation to make sound trajectories controlled by the
visitors. This was three years ago, with only 4MB ram and system 7.1.
And I'm still using it on tour with a dance company to control interaction
with the dancers, and spatialing sounds using a home-build 16 inputs x 16
ouputs MIDI controlled audio matrix.

I would point out two problems:
- It really helps if you can program your patches on a Mac with a large
monitor, because it might be quite time-consuming to build large patches
with so little pixels to visualise them, specially in the early developpmen=
t
stage when you want to try out things fast before "cleaning" the patch.
- when you are performing very demanding tasks (like moving several sounds
on several speakers continuously), you sometimes completely lose the contro=
l
on the computer (in overdrive mode, which you need to use to keep the timin=
g
correct). What I mean is: the patch is still running ok, but the computer i=
s
so busy that it doesn't allow time to check user inputs like keyboard or
mouse. The only thing left is restarting. But once you know the limits, you
can tune the patch (metro objects, speedlim,...) so as to be sure you are
not pushing the computer to the edge.
As the PB 160 is slower than the PB 180, this might become a problem. If yo=
u
have the opportunity to find a PB180 (the Active Black/White LCD is very
comfortable), you should prefer it. I recently purchased a second PB 180,
12MB RAM, 120MB HD for about $350 Canadian.

Concerning responsiveness, I had better results with very cheap and simple
MIDI interfaces (1 out, 1 in). I could have the sensors send faster MIDI
data than with a MIDI Time Piece which would, at the same speed, show "MIDI
Buffer Overrun" messages in the OMS panel.

I hope this helps,

Todor

------------------------------------
Todor Todoroff
Art, Recherche, Technologie et Musique asbl (ARTeM)


273, Rue du Progr=E8s
B-1030 Bruxelles
Belgique

email: todor.todoroff@skynet.be
Tel: +32 2 201 13 51
fax: +32 2 201 15 46
-----------------------------------


----------
> Date:Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:25:08 -0700
> From:
Ben Nevile <nevileb@TOWERS.COM>
> Subject: powerbook 160
>
> I asked a question a while back about low budget laptops that can handle =
Max,
> and now I need the list's considerable Mac expertise to help me assess th=
e
value
> and usefulness of a particular machine. I have the opportunity to purcha=
se a
> powerbook 160 (68030, 25Mhz, 10 MB ram, system 7.5.3) for about $250 Cana=
dian.
> A good deal? Does Max's timing suffer on these older machines? With onl=
y
10MB
> of ram, will patch complexity be an issue?
>
> Max is really all I want the laptop for. I'm looking at creating a fairl=
y
> complex patch or series of patches that sync themselves with a drum machi=
ne
> that's outputting midi clock.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> bbn

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:22:07 -0400
From:Christopher Murtagh <chris@MUSIC.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: powerbook 160

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Ben Nevile wrote:
> I have the opportunity to purchase a
> powerbook 160 (68030, 25Mhz, 10 MB ram, system 7.5.3) for about $250 Canadian.
> A good deal?

Have a look at www.cpused.comto see other items and compare deals.

> Does Max's timing suffer on these older machines? With only 10MB
> of ram, will patch complexity be an issue?

Max 2.5.2 runs well on my IIfx (68030, 40 Mhz 8Mb RAM). I don't know
about any later version on 030s though. You might want to see if you can
get a cheap PPC laptop especially considering what you say below:

> Max is really all I want the laptop for. I'm looking at creating a fairly
> complex patch or series of patches that sync themselves with a drum machine
> that's outputting midi clock.

Complex and 68030 doesn't seem to be something you want to use in the
same sentence these days. :)

Cheers,


Chris

------------------------------

Date:Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:27:53 +0200
From:Laurent Cerveau <cerveau@CLUB-INTERNET.FR>
Subject: r3Dview

Hi Maxers,

A new object on MMyneta (http://www.mmyneta.com). A 3D viewer
for 3DMF files, all that in Max. Download r3Dview (Lite version)
for free on MMyneta's web site.

Enjoy

Laurent Cerveau
MMyneta 1999

------------------------------

Date:Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:18:44 +0200
From:Eirik Lie <eirik.lie@NOTAM.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: powerbook 160

>I asked a question a while back about low budget laptops that can handle Max,
>and now I need the list's considerable Mac expertise to help me assess the
>value
>and usefulness of a particular machine. I have the opportunity to purchase a
>powerbook 160 (68030, 25Mhz, 10 MB ram, system 7.5.3) for about $250 Canadian.
>A good deal? Does Max's timing suffer on these older machines? With only
>10MB
>of ram, will patch complexity be an issue?

FWIW, I have used a PowerBook Duo 230 (68030, 25MHz, 4Mb, OS 7.1) with
acceptable results. Max had to be in overdrive mode, but so it has to on my
PowerMac 7600 as well.

Eirik Lie, Bjornerabben 9, N-0383 Oslo, Norway
Email: eirik.lie@notam.uio.no-Tel +47 22 50 23 14
Check out my CD "12 Bilder": http://home.sol.no/home/eiriklie/Visual.html

------------------------------

End of MAX Digest - 12 Jul 1999 to 13 Jul 1999 (#1999-209)
**********************************************************