Subject: MAX Digest - 15 Feb 1999 to 16 Feb 1999 (#1999-55)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:00:01 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 11 messages totalling 329 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Problems with detonate (3)
  2. yamaha dsp factory
  3. usb to serial question
  4. coll: call, cole, =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=F8ll?= (2)
  5. computer music controversy, request #1
  6. layers vs. encapsulation
  7. MSP pitch shifters/harmonizers?
  8. message buffers?


Date:    Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:43:05 -0800
From:    David Zicarelli 
Subject: Re: Problems with detonate

Todor Todoroff  writes:

>When I save the content of detonate and I load it back, I lose the values
>the two last parameters (they are transformed into 0).

This bug is fixed in a forthcoming Max update. Note that as far
as I know, the update will only be available to people who have
updated their key disks to the 3.5.8 version, and indeed, the
update can destroy the installations of people who haven't done so.
(And there's nothing I can do about it.)

I will however, make an update that contains only externs
for people who cling desperately to their buggy 3.5/3.5.1
key disks.

David Z.


Date:    Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:45:39 -0800
From:    David Zicarelli 
Subject: Re: yamaha dsp factory

>now, that the beta mac drivers are available at:
>is it supported by max/msp?

I recently tested the beta mac DSP Factory ASIO drivers with a G3/233
and system 8.5.1. Both MSP and Cubase 4 produced no sound and crashed
in the ASIO driver when I quit. But I suppose it must work for some
computer, host software, and system combination.

David Z.


Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:56:36 +0100
From:    Carl Faia 
Subject: Re: Problems with detonate

Hello Todor,

The problem you have with detonate (saving/re-opening, and some of the midi
file problems) has been "remedied" by DZ. I don't remember which update he
put it in (Max or MSP). But if you can't find it let me know and I will
send it to you.


>I also tried to save the content of the graphic window directly (both as
>Normal and as Text), but when I try to load it back I got the message "
>error: PowerPC version can't read old format files" in the Max window.


Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:46:53 -0500
From:    "j. arakaki" 
Subject: usb to serial question

Hi - Awhile back I written (for a friend) a max patch that used the serial
object to poll data coming from a serial device (an arcade steering
This patch is part of an art installation which is now travelling  and the
gallery it is now exhibiting in only has the new G3's -- the ones with usb

I haven't actually worked on the new G3's -- is it possible to get an usb to
serial adapter....and will Max (i.e. the serial object) recognize the port?
Or what about the Keyspan serial card -- will it work with Max on the G3?

Many many thanks,

Janice Arakaki


Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:13:29 -0800
From:    dudas 
Subject: coll: call, cole, =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=F8ll?=

another cool coll trick strongly promoted by David Wessel here at CNMAT is
to have a group of named colls, and use the 'refer' message to an unnamed
coll somewhere in the works of the patch. this lets you switch from one
data set to another at lightning speed!  You could even have a named coll
containing the names of different named colls ad infinitum. I suppose this
would be analogous to using pointers (and pointers to pointers) in a
programming language like C.

Much more important than all this, however, is how to pronounce "coll":
Whereas Zoron says "cole", Xoaz says "call". Is this yet another case of
tomayto, tomahto? Officially, the "Zoron and Xoaz Uiniversal coll
Pronunciation Pact" (ZXUcPP) states that it should be pronounced "c=F8ll" (a
rule which is rarely adhered to). Just why we decided to use the
Danish/Norwegian "=F8" (oe) is open to further analysis.



Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 03:31:56 +0000
From:    Mathius Shadow Sky 
Subject: computer music controversy, request #1

         computer music controversy, request #1
         Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:10:11 PST
         "mathius shadow-sky" 

computer music controversy, request #1

Please don't send to me personally or anonymous messages that concern
everybody. I try to open a debate about computer artist's role in
society. Again I don't want to offense anybody and insulting me
(injurier, bafouer, offenser, outrager, blesser, froisser, humilier,
mortifier, vexer, faire affront, faire injure, flétrir, salir, nuire à,
accabler, couvrir d'injures, chanter pouilles à (vieux), traiter de tous
les noms, apostropher, engueuler (très familier), invectiver,
maltraiter, conspuer, honnir (vieux), vilipender (littéraire), traîner
dans la boue) doesn't help to develop the subject and will not stop me.
Keep in your mind when you answer to the controversy you talk to

Mathius Shadow-Sky


Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:18:24 -0800
From:    jhno 
Subject: layers vs. encapsulation

>A couple of people have mentioned this, but I feel that encapsulating
>into sub-patchers is a much more powerful tool than layers (you can
>re-use sub-patchers).
>Also, there's nothing like tidy programming to clear up those nests of
>wires. Seriously: when you can no longer see which boxes are connects to
>what boxes, it's time to encapsulate.

i agree - but i experience one notable exception, and that is when i am
designing interfaces in max. in this case i often have a cluster of tightly
packed graphical objects with supporting paraphenelia that quickly leads to
spaghetti gridlock.

i'm not sure full-fledged "layers" are called for - unless they were
accompanied by other graphics features like compositing and offsetting, etc
- but being able to "hide all patch cords" would be pretty useful. maybe
they could become super dim. while designing interfaces, it is not uncommon
for some lowly checkbox to be so concealed with patch cords that i can not
select it...!

just my thoughts,

ps - i agree about the importance of elegance and simplicity in max objects
- ! i posted my ruminations just to see if lots of other people would chime
in and and say they have the same experience. if so, it would indicate
something to be addressed. after putting bangs next to hundreds of ints i
thought i should mention it. but no matter - overall i think max strikes a
magical balance between complexity and elegance.

() ))  (  ((( ))   ) ))))) ( )((()) (  ( ))   (  )    ) (   ((( )  (()( (()
delicate ear                                       
san francisco, ca                      


Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:50:13 -0800
From:    Alex Stahl 
Subject: Re: coll: call, cole, =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=F8ll?=

>Is this yet another case of
>tomayto, tomahto?

Hey, didn't Nat King Coll sing that song?


Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:54:11 -0800
From:    Matt Wright 
Subject: MSP pitch shifters/harmonizers?

I'm looking for any pitch shifting or harmonizing patches
written in MSP.  I'm aware of "harmv1~" from the Jimmies;
are there any others out there?




Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:27:06 -0500
From:    Jeff Mann 
Subject: Re: message buffers?

> From:    Eric Singer 
> As you suggested, coll is the way to go for this (and not too complicated,
> IMO). Keep counters for the head and tail of the queue, and add
> information by using 'prepend store' (which I think should work even for
> 'set').  Easy to switch from fifo to lifo, also.

Thanks. I guess I would just prepend the current count int and send that
into the coll as a list. I think this should probably work for "any
message" - except "set", which is a reserved word for the prepend
object. I still can't think of any way around that. The main use of this
thing is to hold up messages until a patcher or process is ready to
receive them, and certainly "set bla bla" is a common message. Well, not
the bla bla part.

When I said using coll is "complex", I didn't mean "complicated" so much
as "inefficient". Guess I've spent too much time programming
microcontrollers where you have like 26 bytes of RAM. Sometimes things
in Max seem rather extravagant - like I've won the lottery but I can't
bring myself to spend more than $5 on lunch :-) ||
Visit the Art & Robotics Group site:


Date:    Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:45:40 +0100
From:    Todor Todoroff 
Subject: Re: Problems with detonate

>Date:    Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:45:03 +0100
>From:    Oeyvind Brandtsegg 
>Subject: Re: Problems with detonate
>I have had the same kind of problems with detonate too,
>I think the bug have been fixed,
>but I haven't been able to access the updated version because it's
>needs the new version of the Key Disk which I haven't got (grrrr..).
>If you have the new KeyDisk, you might try to install the latest version of
>to see if the problem is still there.
>Oeyvind Brandtsegg
>Todor Todoroff wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I don't know if this problem was already discussed, but I don't remember
>> having read anything about it.
>> I've got problem saving the content of detonate. I'm using detonate to
>> the result of an extraction of partials and I therfore use the pitch as
>> partial number and the two extra parameters to store the frequency in Hz
>> the volume.
>> When I save the content of detonate and I load it back, I lose the values
>> the two last parameters (they are transformed into 0).
>> I tried to save the frequency in the "pitch" field, setting a range from
>> to 20000. But, when I load it back, the range is reduced to 0-127.
>> The problem seems to be the fact that the only way I know to saving the
>> content of detonate is by mean of MIDI files.
>> I also tried to save the content of the graphic window directly (both as
>> Normal and as Text), but when I try to load it back I got the message "
>> error: PowerPC version can't read old format files" in the Max window.
>> I also found problems saving files in multi-trak MIDI format with "write
>> 1", as they don't load back properly, even with the example showed in
>> tutorial 44: the 4 tracks come back with exactly the same notes as were
>> in the first track.
>> I would be grateful if anyone has a suggestion to get around those
>> Todor Todoroff

I've got Max 3.5.9 and I beleive this is the last version.
The only way I found around the problem is to make a subpatch containing
the detonate object and then saving one subpatch for each sequence of data
as the content is successfully saved with the patch. It is not very elegant,
but it works...
If the use of MIDI files is part of the problem, would it be possible to
provide a way of saving the content of detonate in a different format for
the next Max update?


End of MAX Digest - 15 Feb 1999 to 16 Feb 1999 (#1999-55)