Subject: MAX Digest - 8 Feb 1999 to 9 Feb 1999 (#1999-48)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:00:02 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 9 messages totalling 440 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Director Mulimediaist Desktop Graphic Design Hell
  2. no offense intended
  4. computer music controversy
  5. computer music controversy #3 (2)
  6. standalone apps & custom externals
  7. new patcher & object: Plotter, ForLoop
  8. computer music controversy, answer #1


Date:    Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:52:25 -0500
From:    Johnny DeKam 
Subject: Director Mulimediaist Desktop Graphic Design Hell

> 3. In the meantime running with the devil could an
> extra for Director/Flash allow us to run MAX/msp
> behind some flashy graphics??
> ( this is not intended to show support for Director
> and Mulimediaist Desktop Garaphic Design Hell, but in
> an attempt to open Max up to a wider audience- eg non
> MAXer mutimediaists who expect shiny buttons and
> flashing pants, if you get me. Shame theres no
> antiorp to berate these comments, still I give myself

probably due to my leaning torwards the "graphical" -- but it seems that
if MAX had robust graphics, than it could truly break out of its "music
mostly" shell.  It is theoretically possible to author a CDROM using MAX,
given that it has many elements - a runtime player, simple quicktime, sound
and graphics, and customization (in C) -- but to do so would be like a monk
wearing a hair-shirt... self torture.  I often thought of the authoring
environment mTropolis as very similiar to MAX -- but it went under... due to
Quark's stupidity.

I rushed to buy Stephan Kay's megaMax object's -- a very noble effort
Stephan, but even with them sometimes I feel as though Max is limping years
behind the times in terms of interface.

>Director Mulimediaist Desktop Garaphic Design Hell

I wish for rollovers, text handling, more graphics support, layers in a
patch, a zoom tool, even a hand to scroll around big patchers -- such small
things to ask from the best music program ever made?

Johnny DeKam

UnMax interface v2.0 now installed:


Date:    Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:55:21 -0800
From:    Peter Nyboer 
Subject: no offense intended

> To give you that
>wow-they-are-so-intelligent-and-educated-at-the-max-list feeling? No way.
>Buy one of my CDs and we can talk about my music.

Where's antiorp when you need him?  Well, I guess we all know what he'd
say, so we don't REALLY need him, but.....

Peter (of the Nyboer variety)


Date:    Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:15:17 +0100
From:    Per Anders Nilsson 
Subject: ADAT/EDIT

To Zicarelli: Will MSP support the new ADAT/EDIT card from Alesis?

        / Per Anders Nilsson, The Lindblad Studio,  School of music /
        / Goteborg University, Box 210, SE-405 30 Goteborg,  Sweden /
        / phone work:+46317734031,home:+4631871933 fax:+46317734030 /


Date:    Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:17:12 +0000
From:    Trond Lossius 
Subject: Re: computer music controversy


The answer is 42


Arthur Dent

BTW: There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly
what the
universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be
replaced by
something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

There is another that states that this has already happened.


Date:    Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:56:36 -0500
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: computer music controversy #3


May 25, 2004:

From: Mathius Shadow-Sky
Subject: Computer Music Controversy #1019

WHAT? Dont you people get my questions yet? What is with you wrong?
I thought you were smarter than the people on the Beanie Baby list?
Why do bartenders use such expensive equipment to make their drinks?
Why do gardeners use lawnmowers instead of their teeth?  Why....


Date:    Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:55:50 -0800
From:    Gary Bourgeois 
Subject: standalone apps & custom externals

Has anyone encountered a problem when trying to create a collective ( &
ultimately a standalone ) when using custom externals ?   When I create
the collective, Max claims that it is copying my externals into the
collective ( I've also tried to use a script ). If I launch the
collective in the same directory the externals are in ( In this case
Max-Startup ) it works fine. Moving the collective to another directory
causes it to report that it can't find my externals, but has no problem
with other non standard externals, like MegaMax objects.  I've tried the

archive with no success .. Any tips ??
Gary Bourgeois
Program Director - Multimedia
Vancouver Film School - Multimedia
420 Homer Street
Vancouver, BC V6B 2V5 Canada
Tel: (604)685-6331 ext. 105;  Fax: (604)685-6321
e-mail:   website:


Date:    Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:15:07 -0500
From:    Eric Singer 
Subject: new patcher & object: Plotter, ForLoop

Sorry for interrupting the philosophical diatribes with a Max-related

I have just uploaded two new files to my web page:




Plotter is a patch which turns the LCD object into a scalable graphing
device.  I created this mainly for viewing MSP data, and it should be very
useful for this purpose.  (And it's really neat, if I say so myself :-)

ForLoop is a simple utility object which outputs a specified range of ints
stepping by a specified value.  (note: ForLoop is included in the Plotter

-Eric Singer


Date:    Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:14:47 +0000
From:    Mathius Shadow-Sky 
Subject: computer music controversy, answer #1

To Michal Seta
Before criticizing me personally (or anybody) you should visit my web
site to know who I am and what I do:
The landing place of Le Centre De La Bombe
The mapping page is at
where you can find most of my creations [near 200 pieces realized: don't
pull me in the debate of quality and quantity!].
Here you will find my musical story:
To know what is Le Centre De La Bombe you should go at:
To see the 23 CD produced go to
To know about the philosophically process of making music go to
To know about the process of digitalized music go to
To remember you the CMC go to
there are 111 pages with 200 pictures and 5 movies (you can see me live
performing) and soon music and score: all free !

To Robert Henke
Same as Michal Seta: "Before criticizing me personally (or anybody) you
should visit my web site to know who I am and what I do"

Otherwise, this is not the one place we work. We try for example to
introduce the Ethnomusicologist Society: the John Blacking Society,
where his wishes are deceived. Unfortunately he died and cannot react
against. His book: "How Musical Is Man" shows a free mind against
established comfort. Example:"We need to remember that in most
conservatories they teach only one particular kind of ethnic music."
Giancarlo Siciliano opened a debate about the independence of the
ethnomusicologist: his ethnocentrism as a residue of the colonialist
imperialism. The reactions were violent. We understand that people don't
want to be awaken in their comfort, but we are not attacking anybody, it
is nobody's personal fault! We only want to take care and respect
cultures and people in our daily life that most of the people do not.

Thanks to Ed Hartley, the first one who answered to CMC with some

Some musicians (are they?) miss their job: "We have to be responsible
and careful: "the artist and the philosopher are both doctors of the
civilization" F. Nietzsche"

I will answer to some questions you asked me.

- Yes, the education system is a continuous problem since the beginning
of our Western civilization (starting with Christian Church and even
before) because people who govern want to keep people uneducate to
control them. This now can be changed because of the fastest ways of
communication. Anybody who wants to know can learn: and this is only the

- "have you even be poor"
My experience drives me in these fields several times. My experience is:
you have first to eat to survive, you cannot perform with an empty
stomach. If you re-act, it is only when you get so angry to find your
last energy to act against inequality: some people eat, some people
don't.  With a full stomach you don't need to scream your anger, your
body feels comfortable and you don't care what happened outside

- Sorry to offend your nationalism [Mouvement des individus qui prennent
conscience de former une communauté nationale. Larousse dictionary]. I
was born in France from Polish and Greek parents and now I spend most of
my time in the US with my Brazilian wife and my daughter. What is an
American ? The Natives who were quasi exterminated and now parked ! Or
the majority of "aliens" living on the US territory ? But this was not
the subject. The American Foreign Policy wants to take the lead of the
world through economic and cultural weapons (see for example the IMA
project, AMI in French that was fortunately dismissed thanks to
non-governmental organizations through the Internet [yes!]).  The
American government act outside the US (less and less inside!) to slave
other countries to American rules. Clinton said: "The US is the
indispensable nation for the world" !!! America wants to buy the world
to control it. What a strange project by the way !
It is why most of the non American people hate America and American
people educate with a colonialist mind: expressed mostly through
tourism. In other hand people outside the US are fascinated about the
false American splendor and the symbol Dollars support this false image.
Culture and communication are the most fabulous weapons to brainwash
people. In Hungaria, Czech and Poland for example the US film market is
above 90%. Washington threatens them on saying that they will not have
access to the OCDE [Organization of Economic Development and
Cooperation] if they refuse to diffuse American movies. And if you know
what is it -a pure American propaganda- you get scared for your children
because this culture "attacks" your children: Walt Disney: the false
splendor, Coca Cola, Mc Donald,etc: the anti-healthy food, Hollywood TV
and film companies: the brainwashed movies, etc.  These products are
disgusting ! America wants to be the new Napoleon, with cultural and
economic weapons to erase all other cultures than American and to
transform free people as their customers ! They must have headaches in
Washington and Hollywood !

- By equilibrium I mean "équilibre" in French supported by respect of
other cultures and people, the opposite of colonialism.

A last thing:
"The business of music is more often than not a world of small minds and
little soul, where success is dictated by the ability to locate trends
and accordingly manufacture the most lucrative product available. In
this context, the lowest forms of capitalism emerge in insidious ways:
the isolation and ghettoization of easily controlled "genres" and the
encour-agement of planned obsolescence as ways to keep up the flow of
"product" become the techniques for success.  Vision, integrity,
significance and expression - the driving forces behind the creative act
- are sac-rificed as mere obstructions to the working of business."
Peter Wetherbee/Axiom.

Some Institutions follow the same policy as private companies but with
tax money from citizens, it is even worse !

Money has nothing to do with art, and everybody should know that, to
stop the process of privileges and manipulations.

Mathius Shadow-Sky
We do not want to offance anybody.

I leaving to France and you can reach me personally at


Date:    Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:15:03 +1000
From:    David Rodger 
Subject: Re: computer music controversy #3

>From:    Mathius Shadow-Sky 

* computer music contradiction #1
>This MAX listserv is existing only for patch
>problems? Artists what are you doing? Just resolve your software

What do you mean _just_ resolve our problems?  There's a group of
experienced MAX users who are generous enough to help those of us who have
problems which are not easy to solve.  Why _shouldn't_ we ask for their
help?  Anyway, you accuse us of being "closed in" and then you advocate
that we solve our own problems -- that is, not ask for help and effectively
close ourselves in!

>What is the purpose of the Western artist ? To fit his colonialist
>civilization ? To support its imperialist ambition ? To follow the fashion,
>and to feed the capitalist system

Do you think griots in Mali don't follow "fashions" of sorts?  Why is
praise-singing an enduring tradition?  And whose praise are they singing?
Their patrons, of course!

>What is the role of the artist in the society ? To decorate the "beauty" of
>Western political and economic system ?

What do you think those griots are doing when they praise their patrons in
song?  Seems to me that they're supporting a political and economic system.

>A permanent vomiting and invasion
>of expensive equipment (who and how many people can support that
>continuous financial solicitation to buy these devices ?) that follows
>the rule of capitalist system : a non-stop buying solicitation making
>obsolete what you bought not so far ! This is a part of the world
>Customer-Culture: "buy and do not disturb our system."

>From what I've read on this list, I'd say that most participants are not
blindly buying the latest and greatest technology.  I often see questions
about older machines, and upgrades and compatibility, which indicates to me
that people are generally trying to wring the last drop of performance out
of their machines with minimal cost and inconvenience.

* computer music contradiction #2
>3 billion people live under the threshold of poverty on our planet. What is
>music made with computer ? To spend most of our time deciphering softwares,
>repair crashed system than making music. Are you really making music for

And if we were, what difference would it make to their poverty?  No one
makes music for absolutely everyone.  Sounds to me as if you're saying that
the only music anyone should make or listen to should be intended for
everyone.  That's not exactly suggestive of freedom.  Nor does it allow for
much individual creativity.

>Who is building computers, musical instruments and selling music, and for
>what ? The same big companies who indirectly control your creativity.

That's like saying that the company which made my shoes controls where I

>What is the price [not cash!!] to lose our identity and
>independence by spending time with computer [not music] ?

Then, as a computer user, your must be losing your identity too.

>Computer tools make us busier than ever,

OTOH, maybe some of us just have too much time on our hands.


Is it?  Since when, and who decided?  (Oh, _you_ did.)

>Computer music is the result of a privilege !

Do you think those Malian griots would be singing praises if there wasn't a
degree of privilege in _their_ society?

>(Can computer people influence non-computer people to join the controlled
>"magical" club ? This is the wish of some powerful ones !).

Who, exactly, are the "powerful ones"?

>The people who govern you, and music makers who don't know what is music

And what _is_ music for?

>WHERE IS MUSIC FOR PEOPLE ? It's time to awake and think
>about others. It's time to stop the Western globalization process. It's
>time to stop the privileges and share with others.

I can't think of a way of helping you poverty-stricken folks to find your
own solutions.  So here: take my (band-) aid, take my music, take my
privileges; salve my conscience, and don't question my motives.  I'm not
being imperialist.  I'm not, I'm not, I'm _not_!

>It's time to start a
>solidarity among creators to stop the money-system process. It's time to
>make free music under any false commercial rules or governmental
>institutions that serve only the power of few people. It's time to make
>music for people, not for money. It's time for computer toys makers to
>join artists not the big companies (or to imitate them) which are
>working to submit and control the world.

At the risk of sounding unsympathetic (well, no... I intend to sound
unsympathetic):  Matthias, you sound like a 16-year-old who's seen too many
episodes of "The X-files" and who just discovered what Shell is doing in
Nigeria.  You _do_ need to explain.

David Rodger ------------------------
Motion Capture on Music  -------
Ghanaian Music and Dance -------
I've noticed that people who complain about their imaginations
being stifled or  straightjacketed by some convention or other
are generally easily stifled, mainly due to the fact that they
don't have a lot of imagination to begin with... -- Mark Simon


End of MAX Digest - 8 Feb 1999 to 9 Feb 1999 (#1999-48)