Subject: MAX Digest - 26 Jan 1999 to 27 Jan 1999 (#1999-33)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:00:02 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
     
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 18 messages totalling 635 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Max on the PC
  2. MAX and MOTU (3)
  3. memory leaks
  4. poverty
  5. Netscape plug-in
  6. Max 'n' video
  7. MAX on the PC
  8. BPatcher trolling (2)
  9. MAX Digest - 26 Jan 1999 (#1999-32) (3)
 10. MAX Digest - 25 Jan 1999 to 26 Jan 1999 - Special issue (#1999-31)
 11.  (2)
 12. various remarks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:57:02 -0600
From:    Bob Falesch 
Subject: Re: Max on the PC

> From:    Shamus McConney 
>
> My thoughts on the subject.  Yes NT is more robust than 95 but compatable
> hardware drivers are a problem.

The vendors are behind schedule :-)   I visit the download sites often.

> [. . .] But NT is still a Microsoft product
> that does stupid things like writing to the swap file while it is trying
> to burn a CD, resulting in a pretty blue/green coaster.

I think any system with 1) a virtual memory manager turned on, 2) less RAM
than it should have, and 3) a mix that includes a running realtime process,
will exhibit unfriendly character doing what it's designed to do: roll the
oldest pages out to the swap file when there's a fault (in a realtime
system,
the oldest pages aren't old enough :-).  We see lots of caveats about
turning
off the Mac virtual memory when running MAX.   ...same reason.   If you're
seeing the blue-screeen-of-death (as opposed to just some sort of buffer
overrun -- which is death to the current session, of course) it would seem
that you've got a flakey device driver, or perhaps an ISA card in there with
conflicting config-settings.

NT 4.0 / sp3  ??

  -- bf
 http://homepage.interaccess.com/~raf

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:04:01 +0100
From:    Peter Castine 
Subject: Re: MAX and MOTU

On around 26-1-99 19:25, Bill Meadows said something like:

>Is anyone sucessfully running both MAX and Digital Performer at the
>same time? I can launch both, but when I switch from MAX to DP, the
>system hangs. I imagine it has to do with running both FreeMIDI and
>OMS at the same time, but I don't know if there is a fix. (MOTU says
>they are going to make DP OMS savvy someday...)

The MOTU WWW Site has advice on how to run OMS and FreeMidi side-by-side.
Basically, you run both, but neither runs in the background.

Downside: no MIDI between Max and DP (which could be nifty). Neither Max
nor DP use the serial ports when in the background (also nifty). I
haven't done this with Max and DP, but I have done it with Finale and
Mosaic running at the same time, which is a rather similar constellation.

Alternative: rely on FreeMidi's OMS emulation.

Hope this helps,

Peter

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:14:30 +0100
From:    Oeyvind Brandtsegg 
Subject: memory leaks

I'm currently debugging a fairly complex patch, the size of it is approx
1.1MB.
The patch has oftentimes caused a system crash upon loading,
this has later been avoided by delaying some loadbangs, preventing too
much to happen "at once" while loading the patch.

I decided to check for memory leaks, using the method suggested by
Karlheinz Essl some time ago.
The method uses the messages to max:
;max reset
;max counter
Memory leaks are shown as the difference between getbytes and freebytes,
as printed in the max window.

A number of questions/pecularities have arised:

1. Some patches caused memory leaks, even if they contain no objects
that causes memory leaks by themselves (e.g. if the object is placed
alone in an otherwise empty patcher).
These patches' memory leaks *disappeared* when the contents was copied
to a new patcher window, and then saved over the old "bad" patch.
How could these memory leaks have appeared in the first place, and how
should one avoid getting into them in the future ?

2. After going through every single part of the patch, finally tracing
down and removing all memory leaks that could be removed (some could not
be removed, because some externals themselves caused leaks: e.g. bondo,
detonate, and sprintf ...),
I still have a huge memory leak when loading the main patcher with all
subpatches/abstractions.

None of the separate files loaded show more than a few bytes of memory
leak (in the range of 64 to 620 bytes), but when all are loaded
together, the memory leak is >570000 bytes !
Even more strange is that both getbytes and freebytes are slightly
different when I test it several times in succesion, that is:

;max reset
open patch
close patch
;max counter

doing the same procedure several (4-5) times

3. Could a memory leak cause a crash, even if there's still a lot of
memory available ?

4. How will these memory leaks affect system performance when the patch
is compiled into a standalone application ? e.g. one does not open and
close the patch itself several times, but rather quit and restart the
application.

Best,
Oeyvind Brandtsegg

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:06:20 +0100
From:    Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green 
Subject: poverty

>Subject: COMPUTER MUSIC CONTROVERSY #2
Mathius,
There isn't a controversy.
Max users aren't pop stars
neither support OFFICIAL ART OF THE WESTERN
If you want to recruit help to fight against poverty,
please propose actions!
some may participate.
If you don't like computer music, I do.

So shall we find 'Who is our good old ennemy???'
or 'what could be done even small???'

by the way, if Max was one of the most open platform and example
of sharing thru the world, developping and sharing could be a way
to not folow the pressure of power and selfish interests.
What else, next, better  ???

Roland

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:06:23 +0100
From:    Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green 
Subject: Netscape plug-in

>Date:    Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:02:21 -0800
>From:    David Zicarelli 

>5. I wrote a Netscape plug-in for a Max a long time ago. It's
>pretty cool, but I don't sense that browser plug-ins are generating
>the excitement they used to, so I haven't really done anything
>with it.

Dear David,

I am definitly interested.
Do you mean that one could send patchs thru the browser or control them?

as you know, the great limit of sound online is real-time interaction.
A max/msp plug-in could be a serious step to improove the possibilities.
Meanwhile Flash & lots of devlloping applications are appalingly hopeless.

Roland Cahen

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:23:38 -0500
From:    David Crandall 
Subject: Max 'n' video

I may be in a position soon to offer arguments to a visual arts school for
the addition of Max to their curriculum.  I'm interested to see if an
argument can be made for Max not just as a new paradigm for doing sound
but also ultimately video. (Intriguing thought: what will become possible
when there are copper-based chips out with up to 1GHz clock speeds?)

Would anyone who cares to, please email me or the list with brief
examples/descriptions/teasers about any such work?  Pointers to web pages,
print reviews, exhibition catalogs, promos for performances, etc., would
be very welcome also.  In the past I've talked and heard about "granular
video" and wonder how far this has been developed.

thanks,

dc

ps - an obvious first step is to see if MSP could be used to teach digital
audio to relative beginners.  anybody building tutorial patches that
they'd care to share?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:21 -0500
From:    Michael Sweet 
Subject: Re: MAX and MOTU

When talking to MOTU on the phone the other day they mentioned that in an
upcoming release of Digital Performer it would finally support OMS without
FreeMidi.  It sounded like it would not be in the new 2.5 release.  Don't
believe it until you see it though.

--Michael Sweet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:16 -0600
From:    "Brian K. Shepard" 
Subject: Re: MAX and MOTU

>When talking to MOTU on the phone the other day they mentioned that in an
>upcoming release of Digital Performer it would finally support OMS without
>FreeMidi.  It sounded like it would not be in the new 2.5 release.  Don't
>believe it until you see it though.
>
>--Michael Sweet

I wonder if that is the same support the president of MOTU promised me 2
1/2 years ago!

--Brian

Dr. Brian K. Shepard
University of Oklahoma
School of Music
bkshepard@ou.edu
http://music.ou.edu/faculty/shepard/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:39:50 -0600
From:    Darwin Grosse 
Subject: Re: MAX on the PC

> From:    Shamus McConney 
>
> My thoughts on the subject.  Yes NT is more robust than 95 but compatable
> hardware drivers are a problem.  I know a number of people that dual boot
> their machean just to use thier video capture cards.  I do not sure if the
> sound cards have as many problems.  But NT is still a Microsoft product
> that does stupid things like writing to the swap file while it is trying
> to burn a CD, resulting in a pretty blue/green coaster.

NT is simply a problem in the audio world.  Biggest problem -- lack of
non-emulated Direct-X audio drivers.  Better multi-tasking, but poorer
hardware support.  My PC systems dedicated to audio are all run on 95/98
OS systems.

[ddg]
Darwin Grosse

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:49:35 -0600
From:    Darwin Grosse 
Subject: BPatcher trolling

I've been working on a set of patchers to help encourage (me, that is)
experimentation by making the whole process quicker.  In looking at the
MAX archives, there seems to be a history of asking "Has anyone else done
this, so my effort isn't wasted?".  So, that's my question.  Here's what
I'm doing:

1. Generalized Clock Patcher: A "tempo" based system, made to be used as a
bpatcher, that allows selection of bpm rate, beat/measure and
division/measure settings.  Displays current division, beat and measure.
Contains "buttons" to start/stop/reset.  Outputs "button" functions,
current division, beat and measure, and "bang" on each division, beat and
measure.  Inlets to all adjustable parameters and for "button" functions.

2. Generalized Output Patcher: Meant as a bpatcher, this presents menu
options for output port, function (note, note w/duration, controller, pgm
change, pitch bend or aftertouch) and MIDI channel.  Inlets to provide
pitch/controller ID, velocity or control value, and note duration (for
option 2).

These are the first two bits I've completed, but I don't necessarily want
to continue if this is already well-charted ground.  I originally made
them several years ago (in an earlier MAX life), and have updated them to
work with v3.5.9.  I needed a system that allowed me to drop some
bpatchers on the screen, and spend my time on the "meat" of the work --
creating musical algorithms.

If you are interested in the current state of the things, let me know.
NOTE: The clock manager is OMS-specific (uses external time handling), and
neither of them have withstood any serious testing.  However, if there is
interest,  I'll be glad to update/maintain them.  Again, it there is a
collection of these types of things already, let me know -- so that I can
focus my energy on other stuff.

(BTW, I know the programming isn't that hard, but I got sick of creating
clock and output functions *every time* I worked on a new idea.
Hopefully, this is the start of a collection that will benefit MAX people
that are more interested in music algorithms than OMS wrassling.)

[ddg]
Darwin Grosse
ddg@execpc.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:49 -0500
From:    Kate 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 26 Jan 1999 (#1999-32)

> > 2. Would it be possible to make an object to play MPEG3
> > audio in MAX. Anyone done this/ thought of it.
>
> I'm not aware of anyway to do this, though there are plenty of
> free/shareware conversion utilities, to get it to something max can use.
>

Yes, but an aiff or sdII file takes *10* times the HD space that an mp3
does.
It would be fantastic if it were at all possible to keep the file sizes down
and mix mp3 files within Max.

M

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:45:41 -0500
From:    Andrew Brouse 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 25 Jan 1999 to 26 Jan 1999 - Special issue
(#1999-31)

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Automatic digest processor wrote:

> Date:    Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:27:36 +0000
> From:    Mathius Shadow Sky 
> Subject: COMPUTER MUSIC CONTROVERSY #2
>
> I thought that MAX community was more intelligent than for example
> Cubase community! This MAX list is just for patch problems? Artists what
> are you doing? Just resolve your software problems? What's beyond? Are
> you just doing your job without thinking what are you doing? Nobody
> understood my Computer Music Controversy? My English was understandable?
> Do I have to re-send the text with explanation?

Do I have to re-read the text again which I read the first time? It is
essentially impossible to respond to this mass of rhetorical aesthetic and
socio-political questions save one:

> WHERE IS MUSIC ?

All around you!  Open your ears and keep your chin up.

Andrew Brouse
Computer Applications in Music
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

/*************************************************/
/*         Andrew Brouse                         */
/*         Computer Applications in Music        */
/*         McGill University                     */
/*         Montreal, Quebec, Canada              */
/*                                               */
/*  "I love music, any kind of music             */
/*   I love music, just as long as its groovy"   */
/*                                               */
/*     Gamble and Huff, as sung by the O'Jays    */
/*                                               */
/*************************************************/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:24:54 -0500
From:    Robin Davies 
Subject: 

Hi:

Is there a MAX object that will allow access to the state of the control,
shift, or option keys on the Mac keyboard?  The key object won't do it, as
far as I know...

Thanks,

Robin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:51:29 -0500
From:    Eric Singer 
Subject: 

At 5:24 PM -0500 1/27/99, Robin Davies wrote:
>Hi:
>
>Is there a MAX object that will allow access to the state of the control,
>shift, or option keys on the Mac keyboard?  The key object won't do it, as
>far as I know...
>
>Thanks,
>
>Robin

Check out Steve Ellison's 'modifiers' object.

Eric

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:47 -0600
From:    Bob Falesch 
Subject: Re: various remarks

David Z. wrote:

  [...]

> 6. The reasons for porting Max to Windows and BeOS are numerous. Some of
> them include finding someone who was willing to do it, available
> financing, and cooperation from Opcode. I'm not a big fan of
> Microsoft, and our experience so far with their development tools

What kinds of problems have you experienced?

> and documentation has confirmed everything I suspected.

Unfortunately, since it's rather expensive, it takes a subscription to MSDN
to
really have the 'complete suite' of MS dev tools.

One of my pet peeves re. the Microsoft documentation relates to navigational
problems.

  --Bob Falesch

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:29 -0800
From:    Jim Wood 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 26 Jan 1999 (#1999-32)

 could it be antiorp
> under an alias (aka antiorp) or a mimic?
-he/she/it is still watching us!!!

Johnny,.. thanks for the advice

Antiorp,...now having to spam me at home directly
keep it up mate..........yawn

hafler trio.. no animosity meant, live long and
prosper.
are you suffering from turettes/alsheimers/syntax
distroying syndrome?

jim
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:19:47 -0500
From:    Eloy Anzola 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 26 Jan 1999 (#1999-32)

>From: Kate 
>To: MAX@LISTS.MCGILL.CA
>Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 26 Jan 1999 (#1999-32)
>Date: Wed, Jan 27, 1999, 2:43 PM
>

>
> Yes, but an aiff or sdII file takes *10* times the HD space that an mp3
does.
> It would be fantastic if it were at all possible to keep the file sizes
down
> and mix mp3 files within Max.
>

You could try quicktime movies. Some of the compression algorithms in QT3
can reduce soundfile sizes dramatically (ie: qdesign).

I wonder if the movie object can play quick or fast enough for what you
want. But it may be worth a try.

Good luck,

Eloy
 ------
leaddaet@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~leaddaet

----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:26:41 -0500
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: BPatcher trolling

>I've been working on a set of patchers to help encourage (me, that is)
>experimentation by making the whole process quicker.  In looking at the
>MAX archives, there seems to be a history of asking "Has anyone else don=
e
>this, so my effort isn't wasted?".  So, that's my question.  Here's what=

>I'm doing:

1. Generalized Clock Patcher [snip]

2. Generalized Output Patcher: [snip]

Yes, I did this a long time ago, to create a modular system for when
I wanted to try out new ideas, so I wouldn't have to hook up all the
in/out stuff, and do all the steps you need to do to get an idea working
from scratch.  Still utilize it occasionally.

And I thing it was Peter Castine (?) who recently created some
sort of "rhythm master object" abstraction that sounds somewhat like
this clock patcher.

But I would venture to say that most people who have gone very far in
Max have done this same thing also.  It's really a part of the
progression of learning Max, and discovering for yourself the
concepts behind object oriented programming, and the desire to
create modular components that do what *you* want them to.

Surely, myself or others could post collections of those sorts
of things, but I might suggest that you're really better off
doing what you're doing.  It takes time, but then you really
understand what you're doing, and how to build bigger and more
complex patchers.  Utilizing pieces constructed by others often
hides the fundamental complexities.  Of course, one might argue
that an external object is a piece constructed by others that
hides a whole lot of complexity, but I view the bpatcher
abstraction as a different sort of animal.

Also, quite often the trouble with posting your work is that
one goes ahead and creates a system that one knows how to work
with, not necessarily one that can be given to the masses
in an undocumented form.  I have learned (from writing
professionally distributed objects) just how hard it is to
"idiot-proof" software (protect it against people trying to
feed the output into the input, or use the hairdryer in the
shower, etc.)  And as anyone who has ever tried to adequately
document something knows, creating documentation is its own
hell.

I would say you're on to the concept of modularity, and
should continue - you might create a far better system than
anyone else's!

Good luck,
Stephen Kay
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The MegaMAX Collection: =

   http://www.musikinetix.com/MegaMax/MegaMax.html
Free Max objects!:
   http://www.musikinetix.com/MaxCorner/PublicDomain.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Generalized Clock Patcher: A "tempo" based system, made to be used as =
a
bpatcher, that allows selection of bpm rate, beat/measure and
division/measure settings.  Displays current division, beat and measure.
Contains "buttons" to start/stop/reset.  Outputs "button" functions,
current division, beat and measure, and "bang" on each division, beat and=

measure.  Inlets to all adjustable parameters and for "button" functions.=

2. Generalized Output Patcher: Meant as a bpatcher, this presents menu
options for output port, function (note, note w/duration, controller, pgm=

change, pitch bend or aftertouch) and MIDI channel.  Inlets to provide
pitch/controller ID, velocity or control value, and note duration (for
option 2).

------------------------------

End of MAX Digest - 26 Jan 1999 to 27 Jan 1999 (#1999-33)
*********************************************************