Subject: MAX Digest - 23 Jan 1999 (#1999-27)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:00:00 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 7 messages totalling 385 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. aesthetics--sorry no patches included.
  2. dear mr kay
  3. MAX Digest - 22 Jan 1999 to 23 Jan 1999 - Special issue (#1999-26)
  4. sheep's blood
  5. QKSend & Co
  6. UnMAX People + interface
  7. Repetition teaches...


Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:50:56 -0800
From:    Peter Nyboer 
Subject: aesthetics--sorry no patches included.

>For Whom , for WHICH MUSIC MAKERS is computer music ?
As a creator, it's for everybody.  But, with the difficulties of
self-promotion and distribution, the music I make tends to fall on the ears
of few, and with the transience of many of my methods, it can often only
fall on my ears.  This doesn't stop me (although it may hinder me at
times), because I will continue to collect and organize sounds with the
methods that I know, the methods of computers.  Perhaps this collection
will meander throughout society, perhaps my collection will disintegrate
into dust.  Perhaps someone will be touched or moved or outraged or moved
from the couch to the trash can.  But once the music is produced, it is put
onto a fairly accessible medium--CD or tape.  Which requires a
technological assistance to listen to it.  So, in that way, my lofty ideals
of it being for "everybody" is just a bunch of, well, lofty ideals, but
that's ok, becuase if I only reach a super-tiny percentage of people on
earth, well, that's a lot of neurons kept busy...

>What is the purpose of the Western artist ? To fit his civilization ?
As a member of the population birthed from the loins of the last gasp of
manifest destiny (uh, I live in California), I definitely fall into the
category of "Western."  Since I create stuff that trys to move and relate
and communicate with intangibles, I suppose I also fall into the category
of "artist."  As a white guy born in the same general region as Richard
Nixon, with playfields that included toxic waste, plentiful enough to be
put in the category of "Superfund" by the Federal government, I can't say
that I'm really trying to "fit in."   However, I have no doubt benefited
from the priveleges that accompany such an upbringing (fortunately
excepting high levels of lead toxins in my blood stream).  My purpose, I
suppose is to use the tools of my civilization to try to find my own space
in a space that is not entirely comfortable.   That's artist talking.  The
biologist talking would say that I'm here to reproduce.

>Why do you make music with so expensive computer tools?
Cuz that's what I got.  And it cost far less than a grand piano, or a
collection of saxaphones, or an orchestra.  But, it did cost more than an
acoustic guitar or recorder.  Because my tools are expensive and not
useable by EVERYONE doesn't invalidate what I'm doing.  Harry Partch made
expensive instruments that had never been seen before, never used by
anyone, and definitely not useable by EVERYONE.  He made beautiful music,
and changed many a mind.  The methods of music are not always democratic...

>some people eat every day
>some people don't
>What is the role of the artist in the society ?
Uh,... feed everyone?  Starvation is a problem of survival, politics, and
economics.  Art is a problem of society, politics, and communication.  To
suddenly bring up the violent notion of mass starvation is sentimental at
best, and is truly incongruous with discussions of computer music.  Ok,
that's off my chest.

>What became of the independency of the artist ?
Over here, in the "west" (not sure how that term empirically works on a
sphere!) the artist got too independent, separate from the rest of
functioning society, such that the creative modes are usually overwhelmed
by the practical modes.  The "Bottom Line," not the "Booty," so to speak.
(for those who aren't familiar with the idioms of funk and economics, quite
possible as evidenced by the international audience of this list, "Bottom
Line" refers to the separation between profit and loss, "Booty" is a slang
term for a pleasing rear-end).

>Have they become scared of the poverty?
Computer musicians or artists?  Does an artist have to be poor to be valid?
I would agree that some suffering is necessary, but poverty is not the
only suffering.  Fortunately, we consumers of suffering have many product
My position in society as functional middle-class has always separated me
from the disfunctional living reality of poverty.  It also has put me in a
spot to get to know the machine and learn about computers.  This is not a
universal story, but, I imagine quite a common one.  However, this does not
exclude me from making sounds that can reach people outside of my class.
Feelings and emotions are shared by people from a lot of backgrounds, and
the means of which I make my sounds don't logically exclude others.  Of
course, exposure to "experimental music" takes some getting used to, but
then, so does a lot of different types of music.  The rationale that only
computer musicians can like computer music is like saying only black people
can like jazz music.

>Aren't you shame ?
>This situation makes me really upset !
ANd rightly so.  Computers came from a need to launch missles.  And the
mathematics of trajectories came from a need to lauch cannon balls.  THe
economics, environmental hazzards, labor issues, potential privacy
invasions, etc. of computers are terrifying, which is all the better reason
to DO SOME GOOD WITH THEM AND MAKE MUSIC.  But to do so takes a lot of
adjustment and time spent fucking around with these goddamn softwares,
crashed systems, etc.  All I can say is that music takes practice.  And

>Who is free?
=! 1.  Bxzzt.

>What is the price to lose our time ?
About $10.

>Computer music is the result of a privilege !
>And a fabulous trap for naive people !
>Who cares how music is made if it is boring ?
NO ONE.  So just listen and enjoy the music that is good.

All around you.


Peter Nyboer
"self righteous gearheads have
no guaranteed right to respect,
which is provided as a benefit
of knowledge and empathy"
--some guy


Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:22:50 +0000
From:    Andy Gracie 
Subject: dear mr kay

>Glad I wasted half an hour putting together a patcher to answer it.
>You're welcome.

i actually posted the amendment to the first question about 5 mins=
 afterwards. ive often wondered how some new questions are already answered=
 by the time the list gets to me.......

anyway, thankyou for your patcher. its actually cleared up a few other=
 questions in my mind about data structures etc. i downloaded the big coll=
 patch thing from your web site aswell, useful. took a quick look at your=
 picture - you look nothing like i thought you would......time for a=


Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:14:07 +0100
From:    pure 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 22 Jan 1999 to 23 Jan 1999 - Special issue

>Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:10:10 +0000
>From:    Mathius Shadow Sky 
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>For Whom , for WHICH MUSIC MAKERS ?
>is computer music ?
>for music makers living with the minimum outside Western rich
>countries or even inside ?
>What is the purpose of the Western artist ? To fit his civilization ?
..........etc pp bla bla

so if antiorps mails are a waste of bandwidth-whats this?


Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:38:33 -0600
From:    Bob Falesch 
Subject: sheep's blood

> Too much one hides itself behind technique activities,
> fuck!  What an easy way.

  Too much one puts html and highly technical java applets
  on the internet just to communicate with people.
  Ha! What an easy way.

            All enlightened societies still use the
            bird's feather and the sheep's blood.

  Are your legs too weak to walk around the globe,
  or to swim across the oceans with
  your original parchments?

  Do that, and you are sure to pass your words
  only to those who need them.

     They will see how you have suffered to deliver them.

> Who cares how music is made if it is boring ? auto-response and a magnificent contradiction
  which renders all preceeding text null and void
  due to the converse:

         "Who cares how music is made if it is exciting ?"

> Le Centre De La Bombe

  ...a centre of antiorp wannabees?
            They've a long ways to go.

  ...a centre of opportunists, not interested in any
     max-l listmember, controversial or not, but who
     see the max-l as a hotbed of debate that touches on
     the very soul of anarchy or so-called deconstructivism?

            How challenging it is for them to make in-topic posts
            to an audience whose members are acquainted with the
            monumental struggle of making real music.

   ...a centre of opportunists who view max-l as a modern cultural
      phenomenon -- recently drawing wider attention -- a forum for
      parasitical promulgation of their own message?

            The current naive, benighted zealot is oblivious to
            the fact that no recent max-l posts are about anarchy.

       I derive no stimulus or inspiration conducive
       to my musical art from this zealot's posting.
       I consistantly derive same from certain others'
       postings and links to their own work.

   A purpose of the max-l:
   MAX is a tool for personal expression.

 Obvious to most, but I wish to
 point out nevertheless: This association
 of the zealot's posting to antiorp
 is mine, not his.
                  ( == 2 bad )

 Also obvious is the potential for one listmember
 to coerce one or more other listmembers, or to
 coerce one or more others to become same.
                  ( == alzo 2 bad )

-------------------- - --------------------------------------------------
  Robert A. Falesch  |  "Happy New Year and a libation to all of you (and
    http://homepage. |   a cup of machine oil for antiorp!)"  |
              /~raf  |                            -- 
-------------------- - --------------------------------------------------


Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:35:21 -0600
From:    Bob Falesch 
Subject: QKSend & Co

> [. . .]   I can
> only speak for myself, so all I can suggest is not to hold your breath
> waiting for QKSend to be ported:-)

Hmmm, I was just about to use it in one of my "multiplatform' patches.

> PS: Note that QKSend & Co. rely on Apple Events.

I hope the Mac->NT porters consider several facilities within Win32 that
provide such functionality -- via the COM/DCOM or other "automation"
"OLE") API, let's say.  They'd retain local interprocess communications as
well as the network-based distributable aspect of the Apple Events.

> But this is only one
> reason why I'm not likely to do a port.

? You don't have the right compiler:-)

   Robert A. Falesch
            |    "...freedom and fairness simply do not exist."
            |                          -- former Paris resident
            | "It follows, then, that democracies don't exist."
            |                       -- current Chicago resident


Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:44:06 -0500
From:    Johnny DeKam 
Subject: UnMAX People + interface

hi all,

The new MAX consultants page has been setup on the UnMAX web site.
UnMAX also has new spiffy header graphic and 'look' sitewide.
I've been updating the site weekly -- keep the stuff coming in, always
looking for contributions!

Click on 'People' to see the new section...

Johnny DeKam


Date:    Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:25:22 -0500
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: Repetition teaches...

This is a list about max.

        It's not a list about politics.

This is a list about max.

        It's not a list about artistic struggles.

This is a list about max.

        It's not a list about revolution.

This a list about max.

        It's not a list about reviews of Schumann or anyone =

        else, unless perhaps they used max.

This a list about max.

        It's not a list about anti-capitalist propaganda.

This a list about max.

        It's not a forum for people with too much time on their
        hands to post whatever garbage they feel like.

This a list about max.

        !tz nOt a hang-0uT 4 proTo-punK suuDough-!ntel ektualz.

This a list about max.
This a list about max.
This a list about max.
This a list about max.

May be with enough repetition, you children will understand.

This a list about max.
This a list about max.
This a list about max.
This a list about max.
This a list about max.
This a list about max.


End of MAX Digest - 23 Jan 1999 (#1999-27)