Subject: MAX Digest - 30 Dec 1998 to 31 Dec 1998 (#1999-1)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 00:00:00 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
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There are 6 messages totalling 338 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Schumann
  2. filtration
  3.  (3)
  4. Max list dying

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Date:    Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:36:03 -0500
From:    Andrew Davenport BROUSE 
Subject: Schumann

someone wrote:

>there is a remarkable lack of depth and character throughout his entire
>repertoire, and it was perhaps too late that r.schumann  realized this.

I have to respond to this because, as someone who has an extreme distaste
for, and often felt oppressed by 19th century music, I feel Schumann
(along with Satie and Scriabin who more properly belong more to the 20th
century)  was one of the few bright spots of that era. There is, I feel,
more subtlety and depth to his music that the majority of other 19th
century composers. That these things may not be apparent to the casual
listener in no way diminishes the value of his contributions.

>once a student of law, never heralded for his musical brilliance in his

Who cares.  Charles Ives was an insurance salesman.

>he succumbed to insanity after a decade of attempts at mid-period
>romantic composition and was thereafter incarcerated to the asylum

Along with all the other artists.

Andrew Brouse
Computer Applications in Music
McGill University
Montreal, Canada


Date:    Thu, 31 Dec 1998 07:00:01 -0800
From:    Jim Wood 
Subject: filtration


jim y-w
Get your free address at


Date:    Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:20:39 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 

From: Richard Dobson 
To: Multiple recipients of list 
Subject: Re: Manners
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment:  Music Hackers Unite!

Off-topic, but it's almost the last new-year of the current millenium...

Interesting, this: when antiorp uses plain text, it usually means he is
quoting. There is, strangely enough, quite a tradition of composers
trashing other composers, not least in this century, Boulez opining
'Schoenberg est mort' (and then going on to attempt to conduct Wagner).

There is another tradition, of composers deriving their own music from
work by others (musical or literary). Sometimes this was a 'hommage',
but most times the source was fairly ordinary - a favourite pastime of
composers is to take (perceivedly) mundane material and transform it.
Many poets are grateful for Schubert, for example, as his songs
preserved for posterity verses which otherwise would probably long have
disappeared. The opposite, of taking music which is already deemed to be
beautiful and masterful, is quite a risk for composers, whatever their
own opinion of the material is.

At leat one composer has used the music of Schumann as raw material -
the British composer Robin Holloway. I do not know what the Schumann
aficcionados thought of it.

 Schumann is interesting  - he was clearly syn-aesthetic, and also
clair-audient. One theory concerning his 'madness' is that he started to
'hear' music which was simply too modern for his time. There are largely
unresearched speculations that he hid a lot of abstruse and esoteric
numerological codes in his music. Unfortunately, most scholars of
19th-Century music are unenthusiastic about such things. However, I
would have thought this aspect at least might have endeared him to

Richard Dobson

Larry wrote:
> I have been a silent member of this list for some time now, and most of
> the time I enjoy the commentary.  However, this was an incredibly rude
> response to a nice reguest and I think it was totally uncalled for.
> Please try to show some respect,
> Larry Owen
>  >
> >
> >
> >
> > --        |
> >     -|  9  |-- zve!tez z!ztem . n!emandzland .
> >        \
> >
> >
> > in this moment of late twentieth century, robert schumann's musical
> > compositions do not lend appropriate subject matter for newly
> > work (not to be mistaken for his wife clara schumann who although a
> > celebrated concert pianist also produced similarly thin work).
> >


Date:    Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:46:41 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 

At 06:58 AM 12/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
> Schumann is interesting  - he was clearly syn-aesthetic, and also
>clair-audient. One theory concerning his 'madness' is that he started to
>'hear' music which was simply too modern for his time. There are largely
>unresearched speculations that he hid a lot of abstruse and esoteric
>numerological codes in his music.

That reminds me of Serialism, in which the "music" is encoded with secret
messages.  Here's an article you might find interesting.



Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis

By Heinrich Kincaid

BERLIN, GERMANY (AP) - Recent admissions by an ex-Nazi official living
in Argentina have confirmed what some musicologists have suspected for
years: that early twentieth century German composer Anton Webern and
his colleagues devised the so-called "serial" technique of music to
encrypt messages to Nazi spies living in the United States and

In what can surely be considered the most brazen instance of Art
Imitating Espionage to date, avant garde composers of the Hitler years
working in conjunction with designers of the Nazi Enigma code were
bamboozling unsuspecting audiences with their atonal thunderings while
at the same time passing critical scientific data back and forth
between nations.

"This calls into question the entire Second Viennese School of music,"
announced minimalist composer John Adams from his home in the
Adirondack Mountains. "Ever since I first encountered compositions by
Arnold Schonberg I wondered what the hell anyone ever heard in it. Now
I know."

Gunned down by an American soldier in occupied Berlin, 62 year old
Anton Webern's death was until now considered a tragic loss to the
musical world. At the time the us Army reported that the killing was
"a mistake", and that in stepping onto the street at night to smoke a
cigarette Webern was violating a strict curfew rule.

It is now known that Webern was using music to shuttle Werner
Heisenberg's discoveries in atomic energy to German spy Klaus Fuchs
working on the Manhattan atom bomb project in New Mexico. Due to the
secret nature of the project, which was still underway after the
invasion of Berlin, Army officials at the time were unable to describe
the true reason for Webern's murder.

Hans Scherbius, a Nazi party official who worked with Minister of
Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, admitted at age eighty-seven that the
Nazis secretly were behind the twelve-tone technique of composition,
which was officially reviled to give it the outlaw status it needed to
remain outside of the larger public purview.

"These pieces were nothing more than cipher for encoding messages," he
chuckled during an interview on his balcony in Buenos Aires. "It was
only because it was 'naughty' and difficult that elite audiences
accepted it, even championed it."

Physicist Edward Teller, who kept a 9-foot Steinway piano in his
apartment at the Los Alamos laboratory, was the unwitting deliverer of
Heisenburg's data to Fuchs, who eagerly attended parties thrown by
Teller, an enthusiastic booster of Webern's music.

Arnold Schonberg, the older musician who first devised the serial
technique at the request of the Weimar government of Germany, composed
in America to deliver bomb data stolen by Fuchs back to the Nazis, who
worked feverishly to design their own atomic weapons.

As an example, Scherbius showed Associated Press reporters the score
of Webern's Opus 30 "Variations for Orchestra" overlayed with a
cardboard template. The notes formed a mathematical grid that
deciphered into German a comparison between the neutron release
cross-sections of uranium isotopes 235 and 238.

Schonberg responded with a collection of songs for soprano and
woodwinds that encrypted the chemical makeup of the polonium-beryllium
initiator at the core of the Trinity explosion.

And in Japan, Toru Takemitsu took time out from his own
neo-romanticism to transmit data via music of his nation's progress
with the atom.

"The most curious thing about it," says composer Philip Glass in New
York City, "is that musicians continued to write twelve-tone music
after the war, even though they had no idea why it was really
invented. Indeed, there are guys who are churning out serialism to
this day."

Unlike the diatonic music, which is based on scales that have been
agreed upon by listeners throughout the world for all of history,
twelve-tone music treats each note of the chromatic scale with equal
importance, and contains a built-in mathematical refusal to form
chords that are pleasing by traditional standards. Known also as
serialism, the style has never been accepted outside of an elite cadre
of musicians, who believe it is the only fresh and valid direction for
post-Wagnerian classical music to go.

"Even if this is really true," states conductor Pierre Boulez, a
composer who continues to utilize serial techniques, "the music has
been vindicated by music critics for decades now. I see no reason to
suddenly invalidate an art form just because of some funny business at
its inception."


Date:    Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:47:32 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 

>That reminds me of Serialism, in which the "music" is encoded with secret
>messages.  Here's an article you might find interesting.
>Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis
>By Heinrich Kincaid

I've been told by various people that this article is a hoax.

I read the wire services daily, both manually and with the assistance of
various news collecting automatons, concentrating on covert operations
among other items, and never saw this item. Particularly suspicious are all
the places cited in the article - Adirondacks, Buenos Aires, etc. It's not
AP style.


Date:    Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:36:44 -0800
From:    Gene Schwartz 
Subject: Re: Max list dying

Stephen Kay writes:

>How true.  This list is dying an ignoble death.  The cause is antiorp.
>I also am embarrassed at what this list has become.
>antiorp demonstrates every day a total disregard for any of the policies
>of the list, including the ones that s/h/it promised to accept in order
>to get back on the list.

isn't it one of the new list policies that criticisms of antiorp not be
posted to the list, but to the moderator? If so, isn't your concern here a
bit hypocritical?

> Basically, antiorp and friends bombarded
>Chris Murtagh with hate-mail and other subversive tactics,

I believe this to be absolutely false. I still have a response from Chris
from  a couple of months ago where he told me that he believed that this
hate mail was coming from one 'pro-antiorp sicko'. Where are you getting
this info?

>then antiorp
>took off s/h/it's persona for a few minutes and said "please, chris,
>I'll be good, let me back on the list (whine, snivel)",

An exact quote, I imagine.

>-posting long rants on totally unrelated topics. Most recently,
>Schumann, and the 18k Christmas manifesto setting out antiorp's
>*oooh, soooooo radikal* mind set.
>-constantly quoting private e-mail to the list, in an attempt
>to either discredit the sender, or bolster antiorp's image. Most
>Recently, Bob Falesch, and Joachim Gossman.
>-directly insulting various list members who actually contribute
>something.  Most recently, Johnny Dekam and Richard Zvonar.
>-littering messages with long strings of ASCII garbage.
>I've heard a certain list owner say that he would love to boot antiorp
>(again) if only the list could vote on it.  If it was done democratically=
>by a vote of list members, then perhaps the decision could be accepted
>by all, and we could get on with MAX.  If people are interested, someone
>should volunteer to somehow host and handle the vote.  I'd do it, but
>as people know, I'm vehemently anti-antiorp, so someone a bit more
>impartial may be required.
Perhaps then, if Chris wants to do this, you should let him speak for

"I began to add a few things up and realized there was no way I could come
from a little town in Iowa, be eating 2,000 people a year, and nobody said
anything about it"


End of MAX Digest - 30 Dec 1998 to 31 Dec 1998 (#1999-1)