Subject: MAX Digest - 10 Oct 1998 (#1998-30)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:00:10 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 16 messages totalling 621 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. blah blah blah blah
  2. MAX Digest - 7 Sep 1998 to 8 Sep 1998
  3. Trapkat notation
  4. Job Opportunity
  5. I've had enough
  6. granular... (2)
  7. Politics,logical types, and listservs
  8. Now I remember
  9. 'c--880c8 (fwd)
 10. mouse invisible? (2)
 11. Off Topic: More KrapMatter
 12. proletarii vsekh stran...
 13. Politics, logical types and servers
 14. antiorp speaks

McGill is running a new version of LISTSERV (1.8d on Windows NT).
Information is available on the WEB at


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:35:01 -0500
From:    wastrel@CITILINK.COM
Subject: blah blah blah blah

SHEESH.  I'm setting Max NOMAIL for a while to let all this useless
banter die down.
Dave Wright


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:51:36 +0200
From:    Robert Henke 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 7 Sep 1998 to 8 Sep 1998

i did post that i think the antiorp removal was wrong.
i changed my mind! the reason is not antiorp. the reason is that absolutly
rediculos debate going on and on. do you really believe that an antiorp
needs this kind of public defense. the poor antiorp, the bad listowner ??? =

permit someone to vomit !  in a more polite  manner : i would like to have
this debate coming back to a normal level.



Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:26:50 -0500
From:    evening 
Subject: Re: Trapkat notation

>Has anyone developed a notational system for the TrapKat?
>I am working on an interactive composition using a TrapKat, a dk10 and
>Max/Msp and would like some input on possible way to notate for the
>controllers and two other conventional (Clarinet and Cello) instruments.

The newer v. of the DrumKat (3.5 & 4.0 have a notation mode where the
pads output another note (out of the right midi out I think) in addition
to the notes that it sends out anyway.

This is for the purposes of notating Kat parts using a notation program -
it's somethimg like:

Trig 1 = D above middle C
pad 1 = middle C

etc. etc...

This may be helpful as a basis in creating your own.


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:27:28 -0400
From:    Christopher Murtagh 
Subject: Job Opportunity

Job Title

 MAX listserv owner

Job Description

 Maintain the MAX listserv hosted at McGill University. This includes:
- helping people with their subscriptions
- determining rules on listserv etiquette
- communicate with McGill Computing Centre to keep up to date with listserv
- reply politely to inquires which may often be rude and/or insults

Job Benefits

This job has many perks and benefits that include:

- Your name will be spread around many academic institutions
- You will be constantly bombarded with hate mail and insults regardless of
your actions
- You might be lucky enough to have your name posted in www pages that
contain insults to other list members, swastikas, and extremist views on
individual rights
- You will get to spend many hours helping the people that create these www
pages (along with others) with their subscription options
- You will receive letters of support from many kind people


The successful candidate must fulfill the following requirements:

- He/she must be a McGill music student (preferably enrolled in Computer
Applications, but this is not necessary).
- He/she must be patient and diplomatic
- He/she must be willing to have a near full mailbox at all times
- He/she must be able to communicate efficiently in English; French is
desirable but not necessary.
- He/she must be aware of standard internet protocols and etiquette
- He/she should have some working knowledge of MAX and MSP
- He/she must have a home computer with internet access
- He/she must have a valid email account (preferably one from McGill)

Salary and financial benefits:

$0.00 per week with a potential 5% increase per year.

All inquiries must be submitted to the following email address:

Please make the subject of the email address 'Job application'.

Any non-serious inquires will be treated as harassment and appropriate
actions will be taken.


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:33:06 -0400
From:    Christopher Murtagh 
Subject: I've had enough

Please don't send me any more posts regarding the MAX listserv.  This is
just bad energy, and I don't need it. Anymore insults/flames will be
treated as harassment, and the appropriate ISP will be notified with an
official complaint. There will be a new listserv owner in a short time, if
you can't wait until then... too bad.

Christopher Murtagh


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:04:55 -0400
From:    Dan Trueman 
Subject: Re: granular...

Unfortunately, I'd recommend writing a new object in C. I tried to do
exactly the same thing and have ended up writing it in C. I'll give
you mine when it's ready, if you like, but I need to put it through a
few more debugging cycles.


On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Robert Henke wrote:

> Hi Mats,
> thank you for your patcher. I never tried the groove~ object but my
> still exists:
> Or, more precisely two problems:
> If you want to have a smooth cloud of grains you need to apply an envelope
> over each grain. so you need in case of thre groove~  object another
> which makes an envelope which is 100 % (in terms of samples not in max
> milliseconds !!! ) in sync with the groove loop. i see no way to do this.
> using a bang and a line~ / curve~ is not precise enough !
> The secound problem is that calculations of random derivations of pitch
> position of each grain must be calculated for each grain independently.
> This ( and the envelope/window function ) should work even if the length
> the grain is only a few samples. This cannnot be done with max; the
> calculation must be done with audiorate using noise~ instead of random and
> a audio oscillator ( train~ ? ) to trigger the grains.
> How ???????????????
> I would like to have a patcher which is comparable with the demo granular
> patcher of  "Super Collider" .
> I can`t do it.
> 2 possibilites :
> 1. I am to stupid
> 2. msp can`t do it
> i am not so shure wchich answer i dislike more...
> thanks
> rob.
> Email to MAX should now be sent to
> LISTSERV commands should be sent to
> Information is available on the WEB at


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:56:09 -0800
From:    Gene Schwartz 
Subject: Re: Politics,logical types, and listservs

Matthew Ostrowski wrote:

>A great deal of what seems to be getting people hot under the collar about
>Chris' decision is that it is somehow undemocratic, and I think that is a
>significant root of the problem.  Firstly, it's disingenuous for =cw4t7abs
>or anyone else to whine about his decision based on those terms,

Well, it may or may not be incorrect, but I think it's unfair for you to
label it 'disingenuous'. Others may disagree with your analysis (below)
about social units, and believe that it is appropriate to apply democratic
principles to their interpretation of the events.

> and
>secondly intellectually dishonest (or sloppy) of Chris to wrap himself in a
>democratic flag.

Correct. He based his assessment on the private emails that he had
received, and his overall sense that the anti-antiorpians outnumbered the
antiorpians. But, I don't know if I would go so far as to label him
disingenuous - just misguided.

>A listserv is not a democracy OR a dictatorship.  In fact, it is not a
>political unit at all, it's a social one.  A clique, if you will.

Of course, what something 'is' can be subject to change, and is certainly
subject to criticism.

> Maxlist
>has no guns, passes no laws, levies no taxes.  Like any social group, it's
>power is limited to enforcing certain modes of behaviour in it's presence
>(no swearing in front of the Queen), and deciding who gets invited to the
>party and who doesn't.  that's it.

And, it seems to me, within those narrow constraints, can have democratic
principles applied to it.

>And like most (male-dominated) social
>groups, it's basically open to anyone who observes minimum accepted
>standards, and (here's the rub) it's heirarchical, and is, like the
>business world (or the art world, for that matter), largely dominated by
>those who make their presence felt most strongly, who can put pressure on
>Chris, who, as host of this (admittedly somewhat dull) party, can invite
>and disinvite whoever he pleases.

But, certainly criticism of the undemocratic, hierarchical (tyrannical) way
that businesses/corporations conduct their affairs is legitimate - and
trying to apply some sort of democratic standard to corporations is not
disingenuous (unless, of course, the person has other motives).

>>From that point of view, I can perfectly see the sense of his decision:
>some loud, pompous, ill-behaved drunk is storming around, insulting the
>guests, and vomiting on the art books.

Unfair of you to create an analogy based on an exaggerated antiorp - one
who actually vomits gratuitously, rather than asking for permission to do
so metaphorically. I don't think that anyone would argue that there are
ABSOLUTELY NO instances where someone might be asked to leave a list.

>Well, you ask him to leave, despite
>his uncanny ability to quote Habermas at length, and his occasional
>entertainment value.  Yes, these are bourgois standards, but anyone who
>believes that the the tenor of this list is otherwise must be getting some
>pretty cool posts I'm missing out on.

Reasoning seems to be: antiorp is like a 'loud, pompous, ill-behaved drunk'
who is 'storming around, insulting the guests, and vomiting on the art
books' - ie one who is actually causing damage, and perhaps causing the
guests to worry about their personal safety. Therefore, since we would
accept removing someone like this from the party, we should accept the
removal of antiorp.

>=cw4t7abs, though I'll miss him, _has_ in fact brought this on himself,

One can argue, in many instances where an injustice has been committed,
that the victim brought it on himself/herself simply because they acted in
a way that created the overall situation that prompted others to act
unjustly. But I think that this is misdirected.

>perhaps out of a misunderstanding of the above, and confusing political
>principles with social ones, or perhaps just out of pure cussedness.

Arrogant of you to claim that it is misunderstanding of the above, rather
than simple disagreement.

It is not necessarily confusion to apply what you label as exclusively
political concepts to what you label as exclusively social situations.
Others may not find these two arenas so mutually exclusive.

>Ultimately, I
>have no particular judgements to make about it, since it's ultimately
>trivial, so please don't mistake me for being out to slam anyone.  If this
>kind of situation is a problem, it's a problem with our whole social
>arrangements -- although I think that when push comes to shove, most of us
>have thrown obnixous drunks out of our parties at some point or another in
>our life.

And, most of us have taken umbrage at authority misapplied - this is
irrelevant, as is your example.

"I began to add a few things up and realized there was no way I could come
from a little town in Iowa, be eating 2,000 people a year, and nobody said
anything about it"


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:23:10 -0700
From:    peter elsea 
Subject: Now I remember

>Peter Elsea  wrote:
>>We've degenerated into [...] reviews of video cards.
>Hey, I resent that! [...] please keep them coming.

Now I remember why I usually avoid philosophical discussions and
metaissuses of any kind.
They generally get into a feedback loop and spring off secondary loops from
side comments that when taken out of context offend someone else.
I have nothing against reviews of video cards- when I need to deal with
video, I will search the archives for some of the recent very nice posts
and come to this list with my problems.
What I was clumsily trying to express was a desire for additional
discussion, perhaps about music, to relieve the heavy emphasis on technical
Whatever you thought of Anitorp, the digests are going to shorter and

Peter Elsea
Director of Electronic Music Studios
University of California, Santa Cruz


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:03:17 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: 'c--880c8 (fwd)

Guy Van Belle, by subjecting us to several forwards of antiorp's containi=
around 20,000 characters, helps demonstrate admirably the reason why
was booted: reams of material having nothing to do with the purpose
of the list.


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:03:45 +0200
From:    subcontrol@MUU.AUTONO.NET
Subject: mouse invisible?

is there any way to make mouse invisible in max as in Director?



Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:39:59 EDT
From:    RBMengMail@AOL.COM
Subject: Off Topic: More KrapMatter

"The only way to win is NOT to play."

I believe this is a quote from the "MAX" computer in the movie War Games.

Antiorp dries up and blows away when treated with stony silence as do most
he/she/it's supporters.  Note the few vocal individuals whose only postings
the list occur in support of antiorp when antiorp creates a stir.  They then
quietly disappear.   Same thing on other lists.

As far as the anti-democratic comments go -- let everyone vote with their
-- I vote to stay and remain a member of a MAX topical maillist.  Everyone
wanting to have a crapmatter list should just go and create their own list.
Nobody will stop you.  And it shouldn't be forced on us here -- that would

R B Meng

(who hopes to quietly go back to lurking in the background, enjoying the
related postings, waiting for appropriate opportunities to participate in
interesting MAX-related discussions)


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:18:11 -0700
From:    Richard Zvonar 
Subject: Re: proletarii vsekh stran...

At 6:20 PM -0700 10/09/98, dudas wrote:
>Wouldn't it be funny if one day we discovered that her
>real identity was Stephen Kay?

Actually, antiorp is an Argentinian expatriate living in Chicago.

BTW, congratulations to all!  The Max list has now outstripped the
SoundHack list in its bid to become "all antiorp all the time" and it has
lost its moderator to boot!

Richard Zvonar, PhD                    
(818) 788-2202 voice                   
(818) 788-2203 fax                     



Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:12:22 -0700
From:    Richard Zvonar 
Subject: Re: mouse invisible?

At 1:03 PM -0700 10/10/98, subcontrol@MUU.AUTONO.NET wrote:
>is there any way to make mouse invisible in max as in Director?

Chris Muir's HideCursor and ShowCursor can do that. Unfortunately they
don't work on PPC.

Richard Zvonar, PhD                    
(818) 788-2202 voice                   
(818) 788-2203 fax                     



Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:28:45 -0700
From:    David Zicarelli 
Subject: Re: granular...

Robert Henke  writes:

>If you want to have a smooth cloud of grains you need to apply an envelope
>over each grain. so you need in case of the groove~ object another
>object which makes an envelope which is 100 % (in terms of samples not
>in max milliseconds !!! ) in sync with the groove loop. i see no way
>to do this.

The sync output of the groove~ object makes windowing relatively
easy. The patcher below demonstrates the idea. For a 512 sample window
function, you could save the window buffer~ in the subpatcher of the
Forbidden Planet example.

max v2;
#N vpatcher 50 40 487 406;
#P button 39 61 15 0;
#P message 92 132 14 196617 1;
#P message 4 133 83 196617 startloop \, loop 1;
#P newex 38 86 28 196617 t b b;
#P newex 80 156 27 196617 sig~;
#P flonum 134 137 48 9 0 0 0 3;
#P flonum 190 137 52 9 0 0 0 3;
#P toggle 4 261 15 0;
#P newex 30 307 29 196617 dac~;
#P newex 37 273 50 196617 *~;
#P message 300 56 28 196617 read;
#P newex 300 84 71 196617 buffer~ windo;
#P newex 77 231 65 196617 cycle~ windo;
#P message 218 53 28 196617 read;
#P newex 225 84 59 196617 buffer~ foo;
#P newex 57 185 166 196617 groove~ foo;
#P comment 300 37 113 196617 512-sample window file;
#P comment 213 37 51 196617 sound file;
#P comment 143 120 53 196617 loop points;
#P comment 26 44 55 196617 play sound;
#P connect 4 0 10 0;
#P connect 4 1 7 1;
#P connect 14 0 4 1;
#P connect 13 0 4 2;
#P connect 6 0 5 0;
#P connect 7 0 10 1;
#P connect 9 0 8 0;
#P connect 10 0 11 0;
#P connect 10 0 11 1;
#P connect 17 0 4 0;
#P connect 15 0 4 0;
#P connect 16 1 17 0;
#P connect 16 0 18 0;
#P connect 19 0 16 0;
#P connect 18 0 15 0;
#P connect 12 0 11 0;
#P pop;

David Z.


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:35:26 +0000
From:    Carlton Joseph Wilkinson 
Subject: Re: Politics, logical types and servers

Matthew and the list,

I'm glad to see you're thinking about this issue in terms of the social
structure of the Max-l community. But I think you're assessment of a
"social group" is a little cynical. The best democracies are also social
groups, cliques of a sort. All societies are. Humans develop trends of
interaction between individuals that turn into broadly differentiating
characteristics (the characteristics that separate the Maya from the
Egyptian and the Ancient Greek and ourselves, etc.) that turn into
social structures so deeply rooted that they are percieved as natural
law by the participants (which leads to all kinds of confusion when two
separately developed cultures meet).
Here on the Max-list, it seems to me, we have the opportunity to define
how this society is going to proceed, how its going to develop. It's
good, and just, that this is being discussed on lists apart from
Max-list, it deserves to be. Because this is a microcosm of who we are
and how we can be together, how we define our social interaction. We can
invent our own society.
This is pioneering territory on the Internet because suddenly you have
real social bonding going on, in groups that would never be formed
otherwise. And those groups number now in the what, thousands? Millions?
Each of them, sooner or later, is going to address this somehow. We are
in the minority because we have at our disposal the quintessential
anarchist in the presence of antiorp, and because we aren't so
narrow-minded as to dismiss him or any other questioner out of hand.  So
now, we have the responsibility of setting a kind of standard. Is what
we're doing democracy? Or not? Or is democracy itself too archaic of a
term? Do we need to invent a new one?

--Carlton Joseph Wilkinson


Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:26:02 -0800
From:    Gene Schwartz 
Subject: antiorp speaks

antiorp asked me to forward this, and I can't think of a (good) reason not

>_ !gnorance or impotence _
>heaven listen: earth lend an ear: the lord has spoken:
>thus cried the prophets when their eyes gleaming and mouths foaming
>they proclaimed punishment to liars and apostates for their sins.
>thus spoke the church in the middle ages and mankind prostrate with fear
>crossed itself at the voice of the pontiff and the injunctions of his
>kept under surveillance. inspected. spied upon. bossed. law-ridden.
>regulated. penned in. indoctrinated. preached at. registered. evaluated.
>appraised. censured. ordered about. by creatures who have neither the right
>nor the knowledge nor the virtue to do so.
>at each operation. at each transaction. at each moment. marked down.
>recorded. inventoried. priced. stamped. measured. numbered. assessed.
>licensed. authorized. sanctioned. endorsed. reprimanded. obstructed.
>reformed. rebuked. chastised.
>it is. under the pretense of public benefit and in the name of the general
>2be requisitioned. drilled. fleeced. exploited. monopolized. extorted.
>squeezed. hoaxed. robbed.
>then at the slightest resistance. the first word of complaint. 2be
>squelched. corrected. vilified. bullied. hounded. tormented. bludgeoned.
>disarmed. strangled. imprisoned. shot down. judged. condemned. deported.
>sacrificed. sold. betrayed. and to top it off. ridiculed. made a fool of.
>outraged. dishonored.
>that.z your justice. that.z your moralit_=e.
>in their very essence they consist of restrictions on freedom
>and freedom is the greatest of political goods.
>give flowers to the rebels failed       eliagic note.
>_ !gnorance or impotence _

"I began to add a few things up and realized there was no way I could come
from a little town in Iowa, be eating 2,000 people a year, and nobody said
anything about it"


End of MAX Digest - 10 Oct 1998 (#1998-30)