Subject: MAX Digest - 9 Oct 1998 to 10 Oct 1998 - Special issue (#1998-29)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:30:49 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
     
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 8 messages totalling 728 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. proletarii vsekh stran...
  2. MSP and PB 1400 w/ G3 upgrade (2)
  3. Trap Kat
  4. granular...
  5. Politics,logical types, and listservs
  6. 'c--880c8 (fwd)
  7. rekal.s!t.rant data - (fwd)

Email to MAX should now be sent to MAX@lists.mcgill.ca
LISTSERV commands should be sent to listserv@lists.mcgill.ca
Information is available on the WEB at http://www.mcgill.ca/cc/listserv

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:18:00 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: proletarii vsekh stran...

>I think it's amazing how much discussion your removal of =3Dcw4t7abs fro=
m
the
>list has caused. Wouldn't it be funny if one day we discovered that her
>real identity was Stephen Kay? That would be the ultimate irony.

!tz !=3D true, i swear!

dudas =3D defamAshun

but, takk, !tz =3D hUmr

har de har de har 
bzzp.

http://eetme.cum/m3ndfukc/URloserz/0960w8etd8s69ahfj-=3D=3Drtyeu/haha.htm=
l

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:16:04 -0700
From:    David Zicarelli 
Subject: Re: MSP and PB 1400 w/ G3 upgrade

Kevin Walker  writes:

>Does anyone have any experience using MSP on a Powerbook 1400 with G3 CPU
>upgrade?  Does anyone (e.g. David Z.) know of any reason (whether based on
>experience or not) why a PB1400 with G3/233 would run MSP slower than a new
>desktop G3/233?  Thanks in advance for any replies.

There are a couple of ways it could be slower: if the upgrade had
less cache for instance. Powerbook disk drives rotate more slowly
than desktop models, so they tend not to be as fast. One would
also want to compare bus speeds. Also, since there is no graphics
accelerator card, the screen will draw more slowly.

There's some discussion at www.maccpu.com of heat problems with
the faster 1400 G3 upgrades. I talked to someone who has a 2400 G3
upgrade and said it was quite fast but that it really seemed like it
was going to overheat when you enable the backside cache. Apparenly
you can turn it on and off with a control panel.

David Z.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:07:36 +0000
From:    Mark 
Subject: Trap Kat

Has anyone developed a notational system for the TrapKat?
I am working on an interactive composition using a TrapKat, a dk10 and
Max/Msp and would like some input on possible way to notate for the
above
controllers and two other conventional (Clarinet and Cello) instruments.

Thanks for any input.
Mark

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:24:07 +0000
From:    Neville John Cross 
Subject: Re: MSP and PB 1400 w/ G3 upgrade

>Does anyone have any experience using MSP on a Powerbook 1400 with G3 CPU
>upgrade?  Does anyone (e.g. David Z.) know of any reason (whether based on
>experience or not) why a PB1400 with G3/233 would run MSP slower than a new
>desktop G3/233?

In fact,has anyone tried any of the Newer Technology MAXpowr G3 upgrade
cards -especially for 7100-with MSP. Should this work,David Z?
Regards,
NJC

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:14:10 +0200
From:    Robert Henke 
Subject: granular...

Hi Mats,
thank you for your patcher. I never tried the groove~ object but my =
problem
still exists:
Or, more precisely two problems:
If you want to have a smooth cloud of grains you need to apply an envelope
over each grain. so you need in case of thre groove~  object another =
object
which makes an envelope which is 100 % (in terms of samples not in max
milliseconds !!! ) in sync with the groove loop. i see no way to do this.
using a bang and a line~ / curve~ is not precise enough !
The secound problem is that calculations of random derivations of pitch =
and
position of each grain must be calculated for each grain independently.
This ( and the envelope/window function ) should work even if the length =
of
the grain is only a few samples. This cannnot be done with max; the
calculation must be done with audiorate using noise~ instead of random and
a audio oscillator ( train~ ? ) to trigger the grains.

How ???????????????

I would like to have a patcher which is comparable with the demo granular
patcher of  "Super Collider" .
I can`t do it.
2 possibilites :
1. I am to stupid
2. msp can`t do it
i am not so shure wchich answer i dislike more...

thanks

rob.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:37:02 GMT
From:    Matthew Ostrowski 
Subject: Politics,logical types, and listservs

Having skimmed the recent spate of pro- and anti- orp postings (and to make
my politics clear at the outset, I think it was an unfortunate decision to
can him*), I'd like to make an observation about the brouhaha. (Realizing
fully, of curse, that by doing this, I'm becoming part of the problem.  Or
is it the solution? Nevermind.)

A great deal of what seems to be getting people hot under the collar about
Chris' decision is that it is somehow undemocratic, and I think that is a
significant root of the problem.  Firstly, it's disingenuous for =cw4t7abs
or anyone else to whine about his decision based on those terms, and
secondly intellectually dishonest (or sloppy) of Chris to wrap himself in a
democratic flag.

A listserv is not a democracy OR a dictatorship.  In fact, it is not a
political unit at all, it's a social one.  A clique, if you will.  Maxlist
has no guns, passes no laws, levies no taxes.  Like any social group, it's
power is limited to enforcing certain modes of behaviour in it's presence
(no swearing in front of the Queen), and deciding who gets invited to the
party and who doesn't.  that's it.  And like most (male-dominated) social
groups, it's basically open to anyone who observes minimum accepted
standards, and (here's the rub) it's heirarchical, and is, like the
business world (or the art world, for that matter), largely dominated by
those who make their presence felt most strongly, who can put pressure on
Chris, who, as host of this (admittedly somewhat dull) party, can invite
and disinvite whoever he pleases.

>From that point of view, I can perfectly see the sense of his decision:
some loud, pompous, ill-behaved drunk is storming around, insulting the
guests, and vomiting on the art books.  Well, you ask him to leave, despite
his uncanny ability to quote Habermas at length, and his occasional
entertainment value.  Yes, these are bourgois standards, but anyone who
believes that the the tenor of this list is otherwise must be getting some
pretty cool posts I'm missing out on.

=cw4t7abs, though I'll miss him, _has_ in fact brought this on himself,
perhaps out of a misunderstanding of the above, and confusing political
principles with social ones, or perhaps just out of pure cussedness.  It's
a huge mistake for anyone to think that the internet has truly spawned any
new social forms, or even that virtuality has made the terms of social
interaction very different from what they've always been.  Ultimately, I
have no particular judgements to make about it, since it's ultimately
trivial, so please don't mistake me for being out to slam anyone.  If this
kind of situation is a problem, it's a problem with our whole social
arrangements -- although I think that when push comes to shove, most of us
have thrown obnixous drunks out of our parties at some point or another in
our life.

\M

* anyone who sincerely believes =cw4t7abs to be either German or a woman is
very unamiliar with either.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:53:23 +0200
From:    Guy Van Belle 
Subject: 'c--880c8 (fwd)

dear max-friends and -lovers,=20
this msg is a fwd from antiorp
as we promised at dbonanzah,=20
we would support freedom of speech in this matter.=20

One comment, due to the removal of antiorp now the max-l moderator
has done a (rather uneasy) historical action, which is being discussed on
several other lists. Max-l also made it to the forthcoming nettime-l book,
which is due to appear soon. But it won't be a flattering reference.=20

Again, I truly regret this act, and now the repercussions are that this is
becoming the example of intolerance in a larger internet community. Hope
you all realize this! Go on with the discussions about technology as if
nothing has happened. But my feeling is one of nausea: permit someone to
vomit?

In the meantime I am running Max and MSP and it would be hard and sad to
make music without. And I think the info on the max-l is valuable and
sometimes crucial to that. Maybe some people are not realizing what they
are doing?=20

GZ

Advancements in technology have meant that all manner of equipment is now
available for reappropriation by whoever has the time to learn how to use
redefine, misuse and rewire it          http://simsim.rug.ac.be/dbonanzah

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:56:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: 'c--880c8

this document may also be accessed at:

ftp://quixot.rug.ac.be/MP%26G_11H.dbh%21/antiorp/sentimentz_null-binbuf0+2.=
html

\\\\\   note : select commentary originating on max-l as related to
               this debate has been selected for the nettime book
               [interesting - personally am glad views of this list
               will be made ultra public]

               this is a reminder that max-l is a public mailing list
               hosted by an university existing in a democracy
               composed of all humanz for all humanz.
               humanzsukc++ being 1 statement which
               everyone is yet to understand [paradoxically so]
-

-

- letter [. forwarded to a number of digital discussion groups . magazines =
=2E]

-

-

from : =3Dcw4t7abs ()
  to : Chris Murtagh (max list owner)  via #P hidden connect 3 1 4 0;

>Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:43:31 -0400
>From:    Chris Murtagh Hrdc-drhc 
>Subject: Re: The unfortunate (LAST) antiorp response

>Subject: Re: The unfortunate (LAST) antiorp response

                       states  one

>Ok, this debate is getting childish,

states  one  Chris Murtagh.

>Ok, this debate is getting childish,

an attempt to discredit
and halt the democratic process

>and many people are over-reacting.

speculation

>and many people are over-reacting.

[`many`. `majority`. `most` - these are words
 which have gained the utmost importance in this
 debate |investigation ]

>and many people are over-reacting.

if you are authorized to qualify other people reactions as `over reactions`
you are in fact stating that the `secret majority` whose wishes
you repeatedly claim to represent is in fact `over reacting`

>I've listened to MANY email messages, and I acted
>according to the MAJORITY of them.

[`many`. `majority`. `most` - these are words
 which have gained the utmost importance in this
 debate |investigation ]

>I've listened to MANY email messages, and I acted
>according to the MAJORITY of them.

[have decided to indulge your majority fantasy]

_ please |||| release this data _

repetition teaches:

_ please |||| this data release _

my request for this data
has been
and is   now         still
         currently + presently
refused

repetition teaches:

_ please |||| release this data _

>I live in a democracy,

 we  - live in a democracy

>to me

    .

>this means
>that the majority determines how, where, what, when and why things will
>happen.

your letter and actions are grave indication
you may not yet understand the concepts and
implications of these concepts.

[data logged]

>I live in a democracy,

 we - live - in a democracy

>to me this means
>that the majority determines how, where, what, when and why things will
>happen.

publicly. openly.
within the limits and scope of law.
you and the `secret majority` _have and are still_acting secretly

>This means that if the majority votes against me,

there has not been a democratic vote.  [can there be an undemocratic vote _=
?]

>This means that if the majority votes against me,

there has not been a democratic vote.
there has been only :  a `secret + clandestine vote`

not only was _not everyone_ informed of the `secret + clandestine vote`
-
even the factual data is _still_ being kept `secret`,
while the |actual majority| is being asked by the
`secret majority` to simply accept the results of this `secret ballot`

this is 1998.

this is 1998.

this is 1998.

and _this is_ a democracy

repetition teaches:

_ please |||| release this data _                        |
                                                          |
     _ please |||| release this data _
                                                      |  | |
          _ please |||| release this data _         |re : leasz
                                                      |  | |
             _ please |||| release this data _
                                                          |
                   _ please |||| release this data _     |

>I have to accept
>it.

one  _can not_  accept the results of `your secret` data as

_you_ have _refused_ to make this data _available_

to   _accept this data without verification is purely : unscientific

\\\\

you + the `secret majority` have held a secret vote - the results of which
_you_ refuse to make public.

you + the `secret majority` have held a secret vote without publicly
announcing you were holding a secret vote [which makes it a _secretive_
vote] an act - immoral . unconstitutional . discriminatory \+\ clearly
undemocratic.

_you_ have based your decision on this `secret[ive] vote`

you refuse to honor requests for a written letter stating the reason for
your public action based on a `secret[ive] vote`.

once those excluded from the `secret[ive] majority`
were finally informed of _your_ decision based on `clandestine digital data=
`
and stated their opinions - publicly - in the utmost democratic way -
you have qualified their reactions as `over reactions` in an attempt to
discredit
and halt the democratic process

- the very democratic process which _you claim_ as your guiding principle
thereby discrediting your understanding of the democratic concept
and its implications for the modern citizen in the bit society.

you contend you were left no choice while still
to this date
you are making choices;
you are making choices
not for yourself only - but for other life forms as well
- while you continue to classify _your actions_ as in the interest of the
`secret[ive] majority`.

|0| where is this majority you are speaking of ?
|1| who is this majority you are speaking of ?
|3| why is this a `secret[ive] majority` ?
|6| why are _you_ hiding and withholding this `secret[ive] majority` ?

these are questions which need  to be answered.

repetition teaches :

these are questions which need  to be answered.

>If you cannot accept this, then I'm sorry, we do not have the common
>ground on which to actually have a logical, philosophical debate on this
>subject.

an attempt to discredit
and halt the democratic process

[logged]

\\\ why is this a `secret majority` ?

    can a secret majority exist +?

  - i submit that your `secret majority`
    is not in _the majority_

    and that your decision is flawed.

    i ask that you reinstate my subscription to the max-l
    hosted by mcgill university

=3Dcw4t7abs =AB=BB 1998. ad

\\\\

data -

>From: , on 10/8/98 5:24 AM:
>>would also like to request access to the last 6months of max digest.
>
>http://www2.cybernex.net/~jonwitte/max/welcome.html

is this the only archive for the max list +?

>>in addition would like to request access to the letters received from
>>what you refer to as "the majority of the people" in your post
>>of Tue, 6 Oct 1998 to max-l.
>
> I'm sorry, but I didn't keep most of these letters

are you suggesting that `most`
evidence which you have utilized  does not exist +?

>(they span over almost
>2 years),

these aren't the ones being discussed by you in your Tue, 6 Oct 1998 letter
to max-l .

> nor do I send privately sent email out to third parties without
>their consent.

does not qualify as private email.
it was sent to you as administrator of a list.
and utilized by you as such to terminate a subscription.

>I don't see why you insist on putting me through this.

this is 1998
max-l is hosted by an [McGill] university
max-l is an art related forum
this is 1998

> I'm sorry, but you will get no sympathy from me anymore.

it is not sympathy which is being discussed.

this is 1998
max-l is hosted by an [McGill] university
max-l is an art related forum
this is 1998

> This list is only
>hosted by McGill,

critical

>but moderated/maintained by me.

not critical

>If you have any problems
>with the decision of your expulsion, they are with me.

+

>I don't see why you insist on putting me through this.

=3D 25th^n illogical sequence.

as you have refused to honor my request for a written letter

[ > Don't expect a written letter either, it is not worth my time nor the
  > $0.72 postage ]

stating the reason for your decision -
have printed your previous letter stating the reason
for my removal from the list - which is in turn reason for reposting my req=
uest:

`in addition would like to request access to the letters received from
what you refer to as "the majority of the people" in your post
of Tue, 6 Oct 1998 to max-l`

thank you.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:30:40 +0200
From:    Guy Van Belle 
Subject: rekal.s!t.rant data - (fwd)

info

Advancements in technology have meant that all manner of equipment is now
available for reappropriation by whoever has the time to learn how to use
redefine, misuse and rewire it          http://simsim.rug.ac.be/dbonanzah

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:40:17 -0400
From: a9ff@hell.com
To: Guy Van Belle 
Subject: rekal.s!t.rant data -

rekal.s!t.rant data -

altzo aksesabl 4rom
ftp://quixot.rug.ac.be/MP%26G_11H.dbh%21/antiorp/sentimentz_null-binbuf0+4.html

\\  why was the 0+3 release om!td : s0ls0l

dzere = numerouz spec!al th!ngz about numbr
4.
there are numerous special things about the number
4.

!t = 1 zkuare numbr.
it is a square number

!t = 1 lukaz numbr +
it is a lucas number and

!t = dze 1zt non.pr!me numbr.
it is the first non-prime number.

!t = dze onl+e numbr dzat dzat kan boazt 1 kuant!t+e ov lettrz = 2 !tz
value.
it is the only number that can boast a quantity of letters equal to its
value.

!t = reprezentz dze mozt kolorz an+e mapmakr needz 2 guarant!
it represents the most colors any mapmaker needs, to guarantee

no 2 kountr!ez -- no mattr dze!r shape -- touch each odr
no 2 countries     no matter their shape    touch each other

Christopher Murtagh (max list owner)

>>I simply cannot see how having antiorp's crap forced on me, or a
>>large group of people will help my life in any way other than making it
>>shorter.

Christopher Murtagh.z l!fe != mor s!gn!f!kant dzen an! 1 elsz.z l!fe

= tout;

= reazon 4 : =cw4t7abs error : rezpekt : no such objekt
  reszpekt = bas!s ov ras!zm.  fasc!zm.  kap!tal!zm

-
due 2 - numbrlesz humanz = ultra  h!p.ok.r!tez++
-

kon.seald undr karefull! zkulptd kommentz
[1 kan eaz!l! aford karefull! zkulptd kommentz !n dze !vor! touer non+?]
numbrlesz humanz tranzgresz numbrlesz humanz' vo!sz

!t != feaz!bl 4 =cw4t7abs 2 allou an! 1 2 sensor
or 2 b sensord;

cezt tout.

>I don't see why you insist on putting me through this. I have spent most of
>my MAX listserv time (over the last 2 years) defending you and your antics.
>There have been many (some radical) calls for your expulsion from day one.

memor! module : rekall fasc!zm !ns!.dent.

at dzat t!me hav ztatd dzat w!ll not suport
dze removl ov - n!k longo nor steven ka! nor an! 1 elsz.

 kompla!ntz = ultra enervat!ng
 ma!s !t = !mperat!v
 max-l != !et an odzr sensord ground.

 1 who haz enkountrd 1 l!v!ng z!stem =
 aware !t w!ll regulate !tzelf.
 [aftr all : !t = what u = eczpekt nou non+?
 dzat d.ba!t re: ur des!j!on 2 s!lensz 1 l!fe form
 w!ll z!mpl! ku!et doun+?]

!t != feaz!bl 4 =cw4t7abs 2 allou an! 1 2 sensor
or 2 b sensord.

cezt tout. bzzp

pzb.0+2

kur!ouz : numbr ov kompla!ntz rece!vd
          regard!ng n!k longo 2 antiorp threat =_?

------------------------------

End of MAX Digest - 9 Oct 1998 to 10 Oct 1998 - Special issue (#1998-29)
************************************************************************