Subject: MAX Digest - 8 Oct 1998 (#1998-26)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:00:02 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 7 messages totalling 265 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. The unfortunate (LAST) antiorp response
  2. who is antiorp?
  3. The inevitable has happened.
  4. The unfortunate antiorp response
  5. Antiorp, since you brought it up (2)
  6. Lists?

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Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:43:31 -0400
From:    Chris Murtagh Hrdc-drhc 
Subject: Re: The unfortunate (LAST) antiorp response

Ok, this debate is getting childish, and many people are over-reacting.
I've tried to be polite, I've listened to MANY email messages, and I acted
according to the MAJORITY of them. I live in a democracy, to me this means
that the majority determines how, where, what, when and why things will
happen. This means that if the majority votes against me, I have to accept
it. If you cannot accept this, then I'm sorry, we do not have the common
ground on which to actually have a logical, philosophical debate on this

From: "David Crandall" , on 10/8/98 3:23 PM:
>At first I was inclined to reply to your email in a sympathetic,
>head-shaking, it's-too-bad vein, but after sleeping on it, I must strongly
>disagree with your points.

By sleeping on it do you mean a 5 minute nap? This was sent to you this
morning. My thoughts are that you don't want to consider other people's
points of view, and the time it took you to 'sleep on it' is/was the time
it took you to come up with this plan of attack.

>You seem to believe that thinking critically about interactivity, power,
>etc., is some kind of self-indulgent acting out that can be carried out
>anywhere.  But there really is no other place for this discussion.

I think you need to find some friends, and/or better places to hang out.

>Antiorp isn't (wasn't) hindering anything, but our ignorance of what we're
about certainly is.

Speak for yourself. I don't know about you, but I find much better ways to
learn, interact, play, teach, live, love, etc. than by spamming a mostly
technically oriented list with garbage, insults and ascii art. I also have
other ways of exploring my world around me and expanding my mind other than
reading an academic listserv. If this is your only way of getting some real
input in your life, then I suggest you put down that mouse and go get some
fresh air. I simply cannot see how having antiorp's crap forced on me, or a
large group of people will help my life in any way other than making it

I am in NO way stopping you from enjoying antiorp's posts. Simply find
another listserv to invade and enjoy all the krapm@3r you want. I am simply
weeding out the garbage on this list at the request of MANY people. There
are plenty of forums where antiorp can preach to the masses, all I'm saying
is that this is no longer one of them. I've wasted many hours writing
emails in antiorp's defense, and I do not intend to waste the same amount
defending his removal, I've already wasted enough of my time.

If you simply cannot deal with a list without antiorp, or simple democracy
I invite you to unsubscribe by sending an email message to Simply put 'unsubscribe' in the body of the
message, then email antiorp  and ask him where he will
be next. Hey, if you want, ask antiorp to tell me where he'll be and I'll
post it to everyone. Simple. No hassles, and the MAJORITY of people here
get what THEY want - a simple, no spam listserv regarding MAX and MSP. Is
that too much to ask?? (Don't bother answering, this is a rhetorical

This is my last post on this subject. I hope you can see why.

Christopher Murtagh
MAX listserv owner


Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:19:08 -0500
From:    "M. Abidh Waugh" 
Subject: who is antiorp?

Well, I thought that I might as well throw in my 2 cents worth
regarding the banishment of antiorp, seeing as how everyone else is
talking about it.
         I have often thought that this antiorp person subscribes to the max
list under other aliases and maybe even contributes things under these
aliases.  (Some of you may think that I am a bit paranoid for saying
this).. Also, did anyone else notice that recently he seemed to slip a
bit from his coded language and write sometimes in plain english?
        From the point of view of someone who has been attacked by antiorp
don't know if that's the best word to describe his deconstructions and
ranting), I am inclned to say good bye and good riddens antiorp.  But
from a perspective of someone interested in free exchange of ideas, I
can't help but feel that sending antiorp away is somewhat of a loss.
        Perhaps the real antiorp will reveal himself and apologize to those
whom he has offended, and then resume his role in the list.   I do think
that it would be a benifit to all if he is allowed to be here, but I
also won't miss his crypticism and cynicism.  Is it too much to ask for

M. Abidh Waugh


Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:59:43 -0500
From:    Bob Falesch 
Subject: Re: The inevitable has happened.

Why inevitable?  Have you considered unsubscribing certain Opcode
personnel who have posted to this list?  What's inevitable is that
those people are judged by different standards, perhaps because their
contempt resides between lines of  blandly conventional language.


Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 19:48:30 -0500
From:    Bob Falesch 
Subject: Re: The unfortunate antiorp response

David Crandall helped me better understand why I enjoy the MAX list more
than any other:

> [...] It's about whether Max is to be a
> tool for real creativity or just another way of making bricks for the man,
> something revolutionary or just another source of eye/ear candy.  And I
> think it's worth everybody asking themselves: even given the great
> capabilities of this system and all our technical skill, how long has it
> been since anything we did with it *really, truly* surprised anyone, other
> than in the merely technical sense?

Nick Rothwell and antiorp (and I'm not trying to imply any kinship there)
are good examples of why this list has always seemed like more than just a
place for gearheads.  The type of
matter that Stephen Kay (and many others) posts is profoundly helpful to my
understanding of MAX and I thank him (them) for all of his hard work over
the years. I can't imagine this list
without him.  However, the reason I'm *excited* to read my digest every day
relates to the sense of liberation I get when feeling the presence of types
like the first two.  antiorp is
flawed like most humans, but the opportunity to see some of those flaws so
clearly was not an offense to me.

BTW, antiorp has posted many questions to this list, as well as several
answers and opinions about gear/software.


Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:07:50 -0800
From:    Gene Schwartz 
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

David Zicarelli wrote:
>Carlton Joseph Wilkinson  writes:
>>2. Antiorp's ideas are only ideas, they're not bombs, they're not
>>furniture he's asking you to store. They're ideas that you can ignore if
>>you want or ponder if you want or argue with or about if you want. They
>>are ideas that stem directly from the conversations on this list and
>>therefore are relevant to this list.
>I don't really care whether Antiorp is present on the list or not,
>but the notion that quoting what someone says and following it with
>"| perm!t zom1 2 vom!t" constitutes an "idea" seems a bit far-fetched.

Who has claimed that that single sentence, considered by itself,
'constitutes an idea'? If we would hold everyone to the condition that
every sentence of every posts constitutes an idea, I doubt that there would
be many people on this list.

"I began to add a few things up and realized there was no way I could come
from a little town in Iowa, be eating 2,000 people a year, and nobody said
anything about it"


Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:22:06 -0800
From:    Gene Schwartz 
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

Peter Elsea wrote:

>Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:37:48 -0700
>From:    Peter Elsea 
>Subject: Antiorp, since you brought it up
>How sad, that we, through our collectively appointed sheriff ( and we
>includes those of us who said nothing in the miscreant's defense ) have had
>to pull the plug.
>It's an old story around campus- about the time their roomates discover
>that there is hunger in Africa or that people cut down trees to build
>houses, a few students notice the forces of [h]egemony and embark on a
>personal crusade to put things right. (Not understanding that hegemony is
>one extreme of a line with its origin in anarchy, and that society
>oscillates between the two.)

Can  you really be saying that we shouldn't try to make right elements of
our society that may be part of a cyclical process? Certainly the notion
that society can progress over time in spite of cyclical elements is not

In addition, I don't see how hegemony being the opposite of anarchy has
anything at all to do with whether or not someone can work to 'put things

So, perhaps, it's not that these 'few students' don't understand these
concepts, it's that they don't agree with them, and/or disagree with your
conclusions about them.

>If they are in my classes, they begin to
>produce antimusic, which strives to be different from whatever they think
>is the predominant style. Interestingly, the result is as likely to be
>right out of the Sony/ MCA catalog as it is to be randomized pulses of
>noise. (It will however, be loud.)
>Having done such things in my youth as cut up a string bass with power
>tools, I can't be unsympathetic. Their presence is a benefit to the class,
>because they keep discussions lively and do goad the staid into loosening
>up a bit.
>But there may come a point where they need to be counseled, persuaded or
>(in extremity) flunked. It may be because they are disruptive, because they
>have stopped learning- (they produce the same piece over and again), but
>the most common outcome is that the abrasiveness of their expression gets
>to the point that they lose their audience. (My first day of class always
>includes the homily- If the audience doesn't get what you are doing, it's
>not THEIR problem.)

Is this always true? Perhaps sometimes it's true and sometimes it isn't. Or
are you saying it's true by definition?

"I began to add a few things up and realized there was no way I could come
from a little town in Iowa, be eating 2,000 people a year, and nobody said
anything about it"


Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:28:11 -0400
From:    sean paul zitello 
Subject: Re: Lists?

haven't used list type things before
what have entered into here ...antiorp?  jetsons sub-text?

i'm trying to use the multi part of the multi-media.  video.
1) does MAX understand transparent images.  Every thing is so square.
spinning squares just don't have much impact.
2) how does one set the color table? are we limited to 256 colors?
3) Any other oscopes other than MSP.  I need thicker traces, different

sean paul zitello


End of MAX Digest - 8 Oct 1998 (#1998-26)