Subject: MAX Digest - 7 Oct 1998 to 8 Oct 1998 - Special issue (#1998-25)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:23:36 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
     
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 19 messages totalling 780 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1. Anti-up Orp
  2. Antiorp, since you brought it up (8)
  3. bpatcher pound signs
  4. jMax almost irMax
  5. midi2voltage (2)
  6. granular antiorp
  7. global preset (2)
  8. midi2voltage & granular timestretch
  9. let antiorp back in
 10. The unfortunate antiorp response

Email to MAX should now be sent to MAX@lists.mcgill.ca
LISTSERV commands should be sent to listserv@lists.mcgill.ca
Information is available on the WEB at http://www.mcgill.ca/cc/listserv

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:31:14 -0400
From:    Tommy DOG 
Subject: Anti-up Orp

Dear Uncle Max,
A number of people defended Antiorp's zany antics until the bitter end.
Others pissed at it (Antiorp's gender is not known). In any case it seems
that this list will not be including the life imitates art aesthetic of
Antiorp any further. But I do recommend one take a look at the fine
programming that this pariah has done, you may not like the person but the
talent cannot be denied.

Now if you will excuse me I'm going off to slumberland. I have many people
to see and little time to do this.
TD

      "DON'T FORGET OR NEGLECT YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE"

      Rev. Tommy DOG, noises and other disruptions
                  http://www.tommydog.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:44:17 EDT
From:    RBMengMail@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

I, for one, will miss the occassional useful bit of information provided by
he/she/it.

But at the same time, I'll be relieved not to have to endure the personal
insults, self-serving propaganda, and other generally off-topic, irrevalant,
and offensive (to me) effluence that comes with it.

Thank you Chris Murtagh -- you had more patience than I would have had.

R B Meng

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:21:36 -0700
From:    David Zicarelli 
Subject: Re: bpatcher pound signs

>When you use an abstraction within a bpatcher utilizing the pound sign, you
>will notice the following behaviour: the numbers associated with the pound
>signs will be decremented if you invoke the paternal patch by
>command-option-clicking on the bpatcher window. Saving this window again
>might play havoc on your work since #1 is handled quite differently than #0
>(which prompts MAX to generate a unique number).

This will be fixed in a forthcoming 3.5.9 update that should be
available within the next couple of weeks.

David Z.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:45:40 -0700
From:    David Zicarelli 
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

Carlton Joseph Wilkinson  writes:

>2. Antiorp's ideas are only ideas, they're not bombs, they're not
>furniture he's asking you to store. They're ideas that you can ignore if
>you want or ponder if you want or argue with or about if you want. They
>are ideas that stem directly from the conversations on this list and
>therefore are relevant to this list.

I don't really care whether Antiorp is present on the list or not,
but the notion that quoting what someone says and following it with
"| perm!t zom1 2 vom!t" constitutes an "idea" seems a bit far-fetched.

It would be cool if there were some technological solution to the
Antiorp "crisis" in which people could choose to get a version
of the list that was Antiorp-free. Or perhaps another list should
be set up: antiorp@lists.mcgill.ca, devoted to the ASCII-based
disruption of interactive music/multimedia standard environments.

David Z.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:13:59 -0700
From:    Richard Zvonar 
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

Those who really miss antiorp's shenanigans are respectfully referred to
the SoundHack list, where the last 19 out of 22 posts are either by, in
response to, or in imitation of the "orp".

______________________________________________________________________________
Richard Zvonar, PhD                              zvonar@LCSaudio.com
(818) 788-2202 voice                             zvonar@well.com
(818) 788-2203 fax                               zvonar@alum.mit.edu

                          http://www.well.com/~zvonar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 01:59:54 -0400
From:    Jon Witte 
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

I disagree with the statements below and believe Antiorpe should be
removed from the list.  I never get involved in discussions on this list
of this nature, but feel compelled to under the circumstance.  Antiorpes
idiotic language alone should be enough to get him kicked from this
list, not to mention that most of his postings are off the subject.  If
the list is for discussing just anything that comes to mind,  then why
have the list? This List is for the discussion of Max and subjects
relevant to Max.  As keeper of the Max Digest Archive, I also believe
that it is useless to write in your own made up language that know can
understand, not to mention that it makes the search utility quite
useless.  I have kept silent and put up with Antiorpe's shit for long
enough.  Good riddens to bad rubbish.

Jon Witte

> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:23:29 +0000
> From:    Carlton Joseph Wilkinson
> Subject: Antiorp, since you brought it up
>
> It's your list, friend, you do whatever you want with it, but I for one
> find your actions a helluva lot more offensive than his. I would have
> spoken up sooner, but I had no idea this was even under debate.
>
> I'll give you and the members of the list four points to consider,
> ranked as to how important I think they are. Having done this, I will
> drop the subject, at least for now.
>
> 1. He has earned my respect and continues to earn my respect by not
> caving into shallow, routine standards like those you are trying to
> apply here and by continuing to be exactly who is. If he had said, or if
> he ever says, "I'm sorry, I'll try to keep my posts on the subject from
> now on" -- my respect for him would vanish. Worse, with that one cave-in
> he'ld have shown us that the antiorp we all knew up to then had all been
> nothing but a disposible shtick. My sense is it isn't a shtick. It is a
> deliberate choice to live a worthwhile life based on firm principles.
> It's a culture of choice, like a religion, that he can't back away from
> without losing himself. In that choice, he risks ( and knows it) the
> rejection that you just handed him.
>
> 2. Antiorp's ideas are only ideas, they're not bombs, they're not
> furniture he's asking you to store. They're ideas that you can ignore if
> you want or ponder if you want or argue with or about if you want. They
> are ideas that stem directly from the conversations on this list and
> therefore are relevant to this list.
>
> 3. You imply that you've given him every opportunity to participate. But
> you haven't. You've given him every opportunity to conform--which on
> principle he can't do. His participation requires his voice, and his
> thorny, difficult speech and confrontational, sometimes derisive style.
>
> 4. It seems right, what you've done, but it's not right. The illusion of
> rightness is you hiding behind a common, thoughtless acceptance of
> standards of how a community should operate in its own best interests.
> But I tell you, order is not always in a community's best interests.
> Let's say that again: Order is not always in a community's best
> interests. The discourse needs to be preserved--we need to be challenged
> on our basic assumptions, not in some "appropriate," rarified
> philosophical forum, but where and as differences occur.
>
> --Carlton Joseph Wilkinson
>
> "If this is the case, and you cannot respect the majority of people's
> wishes, I shall have to ask you to leave." --Christopher Murtagh
>
> "reszpekt = bas!s ov ras!zm. fasc!zm. kap!tal!zm"--=cw4t7abs
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:23:09 -0400
> From:    David Crandall
> Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up
>
> Yes! what he said, and well put, too.  I second the notion.
>
> dc
>
> ------------------------------
>
--
Jon Witte - Music Machine Studio

http://www2.cybernex.net/~jonwitte/
--
*****************************************
*   Dancing in the moonlight, to a spiritual waltz-    *
*       Dancing to the music that's in my soul.          *
*****************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:09:30 -0800
From:    dudas 
Subject: Re: jMax almost irMax

Yes, irMax was a possible candidate for a split second or two.
Too bad they decided to give it a more appropriate name instead.
I personally always prefer the silly names.
Anyway...

just to give an answer to a week-old question,
Chris Murtagh Hrdc-drhc writes:

>Is this just my misreading of this or is IRCAM developing a product that
>will compete with MSP? This sounds strange. Are things not friendly between
>IRCAM and Opcode/Cycling'74 (well, as friendly as can be expected)?

jMax should be no surprise to anyone, as they've been developing the thing
for several years now (it used to be known as Ermes).  jMax has quite
different goals than MSP, so there's really no competition.  Its basically
ircam's solution to replace the old Next/ISPW for the sake of keeping their
concert repertoire alive.  jMax is primarily targeted to high end machines
(SGI), as PowerMacs still do not have the necessary computational power to
play the majority of the ISPW pieces.

The situation is friendly; MSP and jMax are considered complimentary
technologies in spite of the fact that there is some obvious overlap in
what they can do. Or maybe it's precisely because of this overlap that they
are seen as being complimentary. I guess it's kind of like the difference
between a butterknife and a heavy duty cleaver (which slices and dices and
can cut through a block of tempered steel).  You certainly need both of
these knives in a kitchen but you probably use them in radically different
situations.

-Richard
(still happy with both my Mac and my Ginsu II)
(too bad =cw4t7abs is off the list.  She was a gas while she was around.)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 02:06:37 PDT
From:    "Sjoerd-W. Bijleveld" 
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

I fully agree with Carlton Joseph's writings about this subject. Just
let he/she/this alien(?)/antiorp do his thing and let him/her/the
alien/antiorp have a communication channel on our list.

Sjoerd-W.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:32:46 +0200
From:    subcontrol@MUU.AUTONO.NET
Subject: Re: midi2voltage

>1. how do i go about controlling small electric motors with max? I assume
>that i
>need some kind of box that does the conversion - is there some place that i
can
>buy one ready made?

You can quite easily control a servo motor with basic stamp which can
receive  from max serial object.

Dan O'Sullivans Physical Computing page explains how to connect stamp to a
mac
http://www.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~alumni/dano/physical/physical.html

if you need more detailed tips you can email me

jukka

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:52:58 +0200
From:    Robert Henke 
Subject: granular antiorp

Hi !
A. granular synthesis with msp
----------------------------
I tried to do kind of granular stuff with msp but i have not found a good
solution yet. my major problem has to do with the basic conzept of msp:
the whole dsp stuff is hoocked up on max and it works blockwise. I may be
to stupid but i did not find a simple task ( it has to be simlpe to do it
with lots ( 8 ? 16 ?) of  voices ! ) to read out a file or  real time =
input
with a window funktion, a random derivation of the position within the =
file
and a controlable / random pitch . I tried tapin/out~ in combination with =
a
cycle~ including a window function and a lot of other things.
If the control of each msp grain is done within max i have the freedom to
do what i want ( structuring pitch, position, rhytm of grain) but its much
to slow to realize clouds of grains. if i do it within msp its fast =
enought
but i couldn`t figure out a patcher with can do the basic granular
operations mentioned above.
I am not so shure anymore if it can be done so easily .
Has anyone written a working granular patcher and is willing to share it ?

B. antiorp has gone.
------------------
I don`t know wheter i do like antiorp or not. this is not  the question. i
am sad that he is kicked out because at least his postings have been fun.
and it was kind of a funny to see how every posting leeds to another one
and the whole resonating  system ( anti-orp vs anti-anti-orp ) did
oscillate with high energy. everyone could skip his messages if they are
not of intersest / off topic. but : each reaction to antiorp is also OFF
TOPIC, because it has nothing to do with max. every posting of antiorp ,
even the most calculated primitive provocations did exite that resonating
system in a calculated way and no one involved did see that he was part of
the game. this is a lesson of how social systems work. antiorps postings
have been stupid, arrogant, intersting, cool, nice...  but i never felt =
the
need to be part of his game. now i need to say that i respect chris
murtaghs decission but i think it was
W R O N G
and i agree with Carltons posting.

rob.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:07:03 +0000
From:    Andy Gracie 
Subject: Re: midi2voltage

>1. how do i go about controlling small electric motors with max? I assume
that >i need some kind of box that does the conversion - is there some place
that i >can buy one ready made?

ive said it before and i'll say it again - iCube is cool. the ocube object
will do this. also ceck out the ADBIO box. think the website is
www.bzzz.com.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:50:57 -0400
From:    Don Malone 
Subject: global preset

i am trying to make kay's global preset look like the local presets
ubuttons and ellison's modifiers work in 3.0
but i cannot seem to get the ubuttons on top of the preset object in 3.5
anyone have a solution?

max v2;
#N vpatcher 3 42 313 385;
#P comment 87 59 49 12 Preset;
#P hidden message 202 143 14 196617 8;
#P hidden message 180 143 14 196617 7;
#P hidden message 158 143 14 196617 6;
#P hidden message 136 143 14 196617 5;
#P hidden message 114 143 14 196617 4;
#P hidden message 92 143 14 196617 3;
#P hidden message 70 143 14 196617 2;
#P hidden message 48 143 14 196617 1;
#P hidden newex 28 190 27 196617 t i b;
#P comment 87 41 49 12 Global;
#N vpreset 8;
#X append 1 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#X append 2 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#X append 3 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#X append 4 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#X append 5 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#X append 6 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#X append 7 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#X append 8 1 13 87 153 number int 0 \;;
#P preset 155 35 25 47;
#P user ubutton 157 68 13 10 0 0;
#P user ubutton 166 68 13 10 0 0;
#P hidden number 153 87 35 9 0 0 0 3;
#P user ubutton 154 59 13 10 0 0;
#P user ubutton 166 58 13 10 0 0;
#P user ubutton 156 48 13 10 0 0;
#P user ubutton 166 48 13 10 0 0;
#P user ubutton 154 37 13 10 0 0;
#P user ubutton 166 37 13 10 0 0;
#P hidden newex 45 244 27 196617 + 1;
#P hidden newex 45 221 66 196617 modifiers;
#P number 70 296 22 9 1 8 67 3;
#P hidden newex 45 275 35 196617 gate 2;
#P number 45 296 22 9 1 8 67 3;
#P comment 68 315 29 196617 save;
#P comment 35 315 33 196617 recall;
#P hidden fasten 25 0 18 0 185 184 33 184;
#P hidden fasten 24 0 18 0 163 182 33 182;
#P hidden fasten 23 0 18 0 141 180 33 180;
#P hidden fasten 22 0 18 0 119 178 33 178;
#P hidden fasten 21 0 18 0 97 176 33 176;
#P hidden fasten 20 0 18 0 75 174 33 174;
#P hidden fasten 19 0 18 0 53 172 33 172;
#P hidden connect 18 1 5 0;
#P hidden fasten 18 0 3 1 33 268 75 268;
#P hidden fasten 26 0 18 0 207 186 33 186;
#P hidden fasten 18 0 16 0 33 214 17 214 17 22 160 22;
#P hidden fasten 15 0 25 0 265 75 265 120 185 120;
#P hidden fasten 14 0 26 0 263 75 263 122 207 122;
#P hidden fasten 12 0 23 0 269 65 269 116 141 116;
#P hidden connect 16 0 13 0;
#P hidden fasten 11 0 24 0 267 65 267 118 163 118;
#P hidden fasten 10 0 21 0 273 55 273 112 97 112;
#P hidden fasten 9 0 22 0 271 55 271 114 119 114;
#P hidden fasten 8 0 19 0 277 45 277 108 53 108;
#P hidden fasten 7 0 20 0 275 45 275 110 75 110;
#P hidden connect 5 0 6 0;
#P hidden connect 3 0 2 0;
#P hidden connect 6 0 3 0;
#P hidden connect 3 1 4 0;
#P pop;

happy tunes
Don

312)341-6477
414)736-9434

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:25:14 +0200
From:    Sukandar Kartadinata 
Subject: Re: midi2voltage & granular timestretch

>Subject: midi2voltage

>1. how do i go about controlling small electric motors with max? I assume
>that i
>need some kind of box that does the conversion - is there some place that i
can
>buy one ready made?

there are a couple of commercial MIDI2voltage products available, however,
I prefer using PWM (pulse width modulation) for motor control, mostly
because it allows me to insert an optocoupler to isolate "the box" from the
motor.
With small motors this might not be such an issue - I'd be curious to hear
other people's experiences. I guess you could get away with a transistor
and two or three resistors to amplify the current.
The other nice thing about PWM is that it allows you to adapt it to motors
of all sizes without sweating too much about "that dirty analog
amplification stuff"

Anyway, I've recently built someone a box that converts MIDI to 8 PWM (+
polarity) signals, so I guess I could do the same for you. lemme know

cheers,
Sukandar

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sukandar Kartadinata
Custom Music Technology
Hagenauerstr. 6, 10435 Berlin, 030-44051219
http://members.xoom.com/Sukandar/vestibulear.html
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:33:39 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: global preset

Don Malone:
>i am trying to make kay's global preset look like the local presets
>ubuttons and ellison's modifiers work in 3.0
>but i cannot seem to get the ubuttons on top of the preset object in 3.5=

>anyone have a solution?

I must admit I'm mystified by the point of this experiment, but
anyway, in 3.5 all I had to do was send the preset object to the
back using "Send To Back" from the menu, and now the ubuttons are
on top of it.

Stephen Kay

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:43:36 -0700
From:    Matt Biederman 
Subject: let antiorp back in

although who knows if he'd come back.

I agree with  Carlton Joseph Wilkinson's points.  distracting yes, but
skip it if you don't want to read it.  As artists we should want to
grasp the tools that we use in a better way as well as always try to be
more creative in the way we use them and try to understand what that
means.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:03:01 EDT
From:    JohnBrit@AOL.COM
Subject: Antiorp, since you brought it up

<<
It's your list, friend, you do whatever you want with it, but I for one
find your actions a helluva lot more offensive than his. I would have
spoken up sooner, but I had no idea this was even under debate.
>>

I agree wholeheartedly. Sure it's fucking annoying when you unwittingly
download a load of ASCII art but Antiorp has many stimulating viewpoints
which
often brighten my morning reading of the Max Digest. If I'm not interested
in
what she has to say I can scroll past it - and so can you. We all get crap
we
don't want to read on the Internet. Just delete it if you don't like it.
America - home of the free. Bullshit.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:37:48 -0700
From:    Peter Elsea 
Subject: Antiorp, since you brought it up

How sad, that we, through our collectively appointed sheriff ( and we
includes those of us who said nothing in the miscreant's defense ) have had
to pull the plug.
It's an old story around campus- about the time their roomates discover
that there is hunger in Africa or that people cut down trees to build
houses, a few students notice the forces of [h]egemony and embark on a
personal crusade to put things right. (Not understanding that hegemony is
one extreme of a line with its origin in anarchy, and that society
oscillates between the two.) If they are in my classes, they begin to
produce antimusic, which strives to be different from whatever they think
is the predominant style. Interestingly, the result is as likely to be
right out of the Sony/ MCA catalog as it is to be randomized pulses of
noise. (It will however, be loud.)
Having done such things in my youth as cut up a string bass with power
tools, I can't be unsympathetic. Their presence is a benefit to the class,
because they keep discussions lively and do goad the staid into loosening
up a bit.
But there may come a point where they need to be counseled, persuaded or
(in extremity) flunked. It may be because they are disruptive, because they
have stopped learning- (they produce the same piece over and again), but
the most common outcome is that the abrasiveness of their expression gets
to the point that they lose their audience. (My first day of class always
includes the homily- If the audience doesn't get what you are doing, it's
not THEIR problem.)
This of course has no effect on their careers- some change their tactics
and find a way to reach an audience, some find an audience that IS
receptive (any of my ex students on this list who have done so may chortle
now), some drive cabs.
Antiorp has been good for this list. He(she,it,they?) has been comic relief
and goad, reminding us that we're not here because we like to do things the
normal way. And I've certainly changed the way I look at typography.
Anitorp has also been bad for the list- there has been very little artistic
discussion of late, possibly because if you express an artistic thought or
mention your own work, you would get an immediate profane putdown. People
with valuable things to say have dropped off, and those who remain are
taking blood pressure pills. We've degenerated into an appendix to the
manual and reviews of video cards.
There's not much evidence that Antiorp was listening to the list- no
questions, few direct responses to inquiries, so I suspect that ?he won't
miss us much.
I've personally never paid Antiorp much attention. It's a lot of work to
decode h?s postings, and they always carry the subtexts:
1) antiorp is clever
2) If you disagree, antiorp is right.
And h?s webpages always crashed my browser, so I never saw any of the stuff
?he's reportedly good at.
I'll miss h?m, but not a whole lot.

Peter Elsea
Electronic Music Studios
University of California, Santa Cruz
http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/index.html
 elsea@cats.ucsc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:08:55 -0500
From:    Hosken 
Subject: Re: Antiorp, since you brought it up

>From:    Carlton Joseph Wilkinson 
>Subject: Antiorp, since you brought it up
>
>1. He has earned my respect and continues to earn my respect by not
>caving into shallow, routine standards like those you are trying to
>apply here and by continuing to be exactly who is. If he had said, or if
>he ever says, "I'm sorry, I'll try to keep my posts on the subject from
>now on" -- my respect for him would vanish. Worse, with that one cave-in
>he'ld have shown us that the antiorp we all knew up to then had all been
>nothing but a disposible shtick. My sense is it isn't a shtick. It is a
>deliberate choice to live a worthwhile life based on firm principles.

Sticking to one's principles and damn all else is not necessarily
virtuous or indicative of a "worthwhile" life. These evaluations are
entirely dependent on the value of the principles. This can take the form
of 1) some intrinsic value and/or 2) the value of the principles to the
community to which s/he is a part (here the MAX list).

_Personally_, I find no value to antiorp's _apparent_ principles either
intrinsically or in the context of the MAX list. That said, I am
ambivalent about the removal of antiorp from the list. I ignore every
post from him/her/it/them, but, aside from the ocassional grunt of
annoyance while I scroll down the digest, it's simply not that hard.
Also, I wouldn't want any group of which I am a part to perfectly reflect
my personal opinions---too scary.

>It's a culture of choice, like a religion, that he can't back away from
>without losing himself.

These seem to be untested/arbitrary assumptions---unless you have
information not available to the rest of us. I think even polemic should
be stay within the bounds of that which is apparent.

>2. Antiorp's ideas are only ideas, they're not bombs, they're not
>furniture he's asking you to store. They're ideas that you can ignore if
>you want or ponder if you want or argue with or about if you want.

agreed. However, it's not the ideas that annoy me---they're not
particularly provocative or interesting---it's the excursions into
extended ascii art.

>They
>are ideas that stem directly from the conversations on this list and
>therefore are relevant to this list.

I don't agree.

>3. You imply that you've given him every opportunity to participate. But
>you haven't. You've given him every opportunity to conform--which on
>principle he can't do. His participation requires his voice, and his
>thorny, difficult speech and confrontational, sometimes derisive style.

Hmmmm... interesting point.

>4. It seems right, what you've done, but it's not right. The illusion of
>rightness is you hiding behind a common, thoughtless acceptance of
>standards of how a community should operate in its own best interests.
>But I tell you, order is not always in a community's best interests.
>Let's say that again: Order is not always in a community's best
>interests. The discourse needs to be preserved--we need to be challenged
>on our basic assumptions, not in some "appropriate," rarified
>philosophical forum, but where and as differences occur.

I appreciate your passion, but I simply can't accept that antiorp's
discourse (for me, this is stretching that term) somehow challenges my
"basic" assumptions. And certainly not where MAX is concerned (which,
after all, is the nominal purpose of this forum).

Again, I'm happy to go on ignoring antiorp's posts and keeping
him/her/it/they on the top of my "obnoxious poser" list.

Dan Hosken

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:23:31 -0400
From:    David Crandall 
Subject: Re: The unfortunate antiorp response

At first I was inclined to reply to your email in a sympathetic,
head-shaking, it's-too-bad vein, but after sleeping on it, I must strongly
disagree with your points.  I don't buy your allegory, and would refer you
instead to the image in that incredible TV spot back in 1984 that woke us
up to this platform in the first place.

I've read and deleted antiorp at great length.  But on other lists, I've
spent far more time deleting the posts of that chauvinistic and childish
group that has no doubt been inundating you, and the delete key works just
as well for one as the other. (Imagine that!) I've learned how not to get
drawn in by antiorp's insults (but they do keep me awake), and this is
also a skill you can apply to anybody.

You seem to believe that thinking critically about interactivity, power,
etc., is some kind of self-indulgent acting out that can be carried out
anywhere.  But there really is no other place for this discussion.  I've
tried to bring it up here and been politely ignored; I've asked where else
there might be such a forum and been politely ignored again.

Maybe it takes a racket like antiorp's to let us know that there are
things to think about here, and that they're *not* irrelevant.  Are we
really just high-tech gearheads here?  It's about whether Max is to be a
tool for real creativity or just another way of making bricks for the man,
something revolutionary or just another source of eye/ear candy.  And I
think it's worth everybody asking themselves: even given the great
capabilities of this system and all our technical skill, how long has it
been since anything we did with it *really, truly* surprised anyone, other
than in the merely technical sense?

I know you work hard at what you're doing, but do we really need a
schoolmaster? are you really going to instruct us how to think? And I know
you care about the list, but I think your duty consisted in this case in
deleting, not antiorp, but the others.  If their opinions constitute
sanity, then we need a few more psychotics. And if the schoolboys (and
other would-be schoolmasters) run away for fear of the noise, I think that
would be a really fine thing.

But you know what?  I don't think they're going anywhere.  The technical
work continues even at this moment.  Antiorp isn't (wasn't) hindering
anything, but our ignorance of what we're about certainly is.

dc

On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Chris Murtagh Hrdc-drhc wrote:

> Dear Mr. Crandall,
>
> Thank you for your email regarding antiorp. I have taken it into
> consideration along with all others, and for now, my decision stands. For
> the longest time, I spent most of my time with the MAX listserv defending
> antiorp and replying to requests that he get booted (all via private email
> of course). This decision was not easy for me to make, because like you (I
> imagine), I strongly detest censorship. I have been replying to many
emails
> today both pro and con antiorp, and I have come up with an analogy that I
> think best expresses my views. If you please, have a read:
>
> Imagine a story of a student running through the halls of a school during
> class time screaming at the top of his lungs. There are many complaints
> from some of the best students. He is repeatedly asked to stop as he is
> disturbing the others.  He refuses. He then provokes fights between other
> students. Again he is asked to at least conform to a rather non
restricting
> set of rules (comparatively). He refuses, and instead he increases his
> disruptive activity. A final plea for respect for others goes unnoticed.
> Finally, even at a loss to everyone in the school (as he is still a good
> student), he is asked to go to another school which permits this type of
> behaviour. In this story, there are over 100 on the same block. A small
> gang of students protest, but luckily for them, they can attend BOTH their
> current school AND whichever one the disruptive student chooses to attend.
>
> I don't mean to trivialize your view with this story, simply to put it
into
> perspective. There are many ways in which antiorp can express his/her art.
> You are aware of his/her email address. Ask him/her where he/she will be
> next and join him/her there. This way, you can get all the antiorp you
want,
>  and the others on the MAX list will get the non cluttered traffic they
> request.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Christopher Murtagh
> MAX listserv owner
>

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End of MAX Digest - 7 Oct 1998 to 8 Oct 1998 - Special issue (#1998-25)
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