Subject: MAX Digest - 14 Sep 1998 to 15 Sep 1998 - Special issue (#1998-1)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:11:09 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
     
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 20 messages totalling 788 lines in this issue.

Topics in this special issue:

  1.  (2)
  2. movement detection->MIDI (2)
  3. some answers
  4. "detonate" bug ?
  5. "UNAUTHORIZED NOTE DUMP" (2)
  6. MAX Digest - 4 Sep 1998 to 5 Sep 1998
  7. MSP Audio Sync (2)
  8. Timeline Question
  9. Am I crazy? re: news part I and II (2)
 10. time-code
 11. Subject: movement detection->MIDI
 12. list-editor
 13. sfplay~ crash
 14. Window flags messages to thispatcher/hide the padlock?
 15. Detonate bug/share data

McGill is running a new version of LISTSERV (1.8d on Windows NT).
Information is available on the WEB at http://www.mcgill.ca/cc/listserv

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:21:53 -0500
From:    =cw4t7abs 
Subject: 

>Does this mean that David Z.'s
>(already over taxed) talent and resources will now be split in half so that
>some of his time will be spent in the windoze domain?

alert 1 human 2 dze van!t+e ov !tz affa!rz.

>Will the effect of
>this be that new Max development will slow down?  Am I the only one that
>enjoyed Antiorp's Anti-PC/pro-Mac postings even though they were entirely
>OT (please don't post any more)?

sure.

> I feel that a porting of MAX to Linux
>would make me feel a little less betrayed,

pd

>but the resource drain to do so
>could be much better spend (IMO) on fixing/improving MAX on the existing
>platform.

alert 1 human 2 dze van!t+e ov !tz affa!rz.

abr _ !mportansz != !mp.

||||| a9ff 0+2

-

>cd is beautiful,

-

>I LOVE THIS

-

>zum, all I expected +++

-

Content-disposition: inline s!lenss

- max operation fa!ld _ pardon.
  =cw4t7abs = kaputt. au revo!r.

>(please don't post any more)

  punkt. das ende e!nr veLt.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:18:50 +0000
From:    Le Quan Ninh 
Subject: Re: movement detection->MIDI

>From:    Roald Baudoux 
>Subject: movement detection->MIDI
>
>What is the best movement detection system available for an affordable
>price? (I-Cube, Midi Creator/Midi Gesture, SoundBeam or another one)?

IRISIS is a software recently written for PowerMac which works with video :
you can define zones (on different resolution) where MIDI events are
triggered. The new version of IRISIS can dialog with Max. I suppose that
the software is cheap and I heard that it could be distributed as a
shareware.

=46or info, you can write to : collecie@cyberaccess.fr

Ninh

-----------------------------
L=EA Quan Ninh
ninh@musique.net
http://www.musique.net/ninh/
ICQ : 17354847
-----------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:11:06 -0000
From:    Nick Rothwell 
Subject: Re: some answers

> And why bother, since you can run Vision from Max* (via AIC and
> MIDIKeys) Come to think of it, this is a good way to accomplish #1,
> since Vision will generate MTC and send it to the world as well as
> back to Max.

I do something similar on my ancient set-up: I connect Vision and MAX
via MIDI Manager. Usually Vision is reading MTC from somewhere in the
real world, and sending beat clock to MAX via MM, but it could
presumably be told to send MTC instead.

--
        Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL            contemporary dance projects
        http://www.cassiel.com            music synthesis and control

  "Welcome to Moscow, Mrs. Gandhi."  -- Leonid Brezhnev to Margaret Thatcher

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:37:03 +0200
From:    Danny Wiseburgh 
Subject: Re: "detonate" bug ?

>>Danny Wiseburgh  writes:
>>the max 3.5 addendum reads (page 46): "Any detonate object with the same
>>name argument will share the same event data".
>>
>>i never managed to get this to work. seems like data is never shared, even
>>when the name arguments of two "detonate" objects are identical.

>It doesn't work. I've admitted this before. I hope you'll accept my
>apologies, and we can move forward.
>
>David Z.

had a bad day ... huh ?

Danny

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:18:12 -0400
From:    Greg Hall 
Subject: "UNAUTHORIZED NOTE DUMP"

Well, I'm running MAX 3.0 on a powerbook 160: pretty old, I know.  =
Anyway, I start my "algorithm" with a toggle switch, and the first thing =
I hear before I hear what I want to hear is a 0.5 second "note dump" of =
all MIDI channels playing a beautiful chaos (heard immediately upon =
pressing the toggle switch ON).  While I like beautiful chaos, I like to =
regulate it as well.  Any ideas on what's causing this and/or how to get =
rid of it? =20

greg hall
ghall@bangor.autometric.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:51:12 +0000
From:    =?iso-8859-1?Q?=AE=3B=FF?= 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 4 Sep 1998 to 5 Sep 1998

hi all

belated replies as I've only just got back from my week in amsterdam..

>
>  >LiSa
>  >v 2.0 will be out
>  >in the fall,
>
>  upgrade kozt =_?

they haven't decided  how this is going to work yet. the new version looks
very
good; new features and very nice filters. it looks like it'll be available
early
next year now.

> >I'd like to be able to do further processing on LiSa's ouptput, so is it
> >possible to, as it were, interupt the audio pathway between LiSa's output
> >and the SoundManager, and insert a Max/MSP patch?
>
> Truly impossible until a major revision of the Sound Manager.

well, after an intense week with LiSa I think that to do the specific thing
that
i want to do, I'm really going to have to design it in max/msp  - so i'd
better
get learning!

by the way - coincidence time: a little while ago someone mentioned a "max
with
cymbals" piece that was created by Laetitia Sonama. She happened to be at
STEIM
as the same time as me, so I got to chat with her and also see her new piece
performed, which uses msp and is controlled with her glove instrument. Very
nice sounds!

and I wrote....

> that's actually what I suspected. I'm hoping that either Digigram come up
with
> drivers for their laptop digital audio card sometime soon,

Apparently Digigram are to announce Mac support for their PCM audio cards at
IBC
this week. hurray!

david

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:15:20 -0400
From:    Michael Sweet 
Subject: MSP Audio Sync

Can MSP sync to another source like a SMPTE Slave Driver or Digital Time
Piece?  Has anyone had any experience with MSP and trying to sync audio to
SMPTE?  Is it possible or will it be possible in future releases?

Thanks -
Michael Sweet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:16:17 -0400
From:    Michael Sweet 
Subject: Timeline Question

When I open a timeline in max each timeline track (other than the marker
track) seems to load it's own patch directly.  Is it possible to have two
tracks accessing the same patch without it opening the same patch twice?

Thanks -
Michael Sweet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:03:35 -0400
From:    Chris Murtagh Hrdc-drhc 
Subject: Re: Am I crazy? re: news part I and II

From: "Stephen Kay" , on 9/14/98 5:54 PM:
>But we all know it's an amazing piece of software; even
>more so with the addition of MSP.

No argument there.

>Would you deny David Z. the right to profit from selling
>this amazing creation to an audience of more than 10
>times the size?

Although I'm not much of a capitalist, I do wish David all the success with
MAX and MSP, I'm sure we can all agree that he deserves it. I'm just
saddened that the way to do this seems to be (at least in the minds of
many) via windows.

>Furthermore, imagine what would happen if it became a
>successful Windows product, and suddenly sales were great
>enough that David Z./Cycling '74 could actually hire and put
>*more than one person* on further development,


 So, after a few years of successful Windoze sales, the heads of Cycling
'74 get together and say:"Hrm, we are making oodles of profit via our
Windoze sales, and, although the margin is the same, we only make 1/10th
with our Macintrash sales. I have a fantastic idea... lets save some $$ and
ditch our Mac R&D."


>and support of all those whacky digi cards? That would be a good thing.

I'm really not convinced who is more evil, Microsoft or Digidesign. I would
be more than happy to see some other company squeeze them out of market
share (like Korg, Sonorus, MOTU, or anyone else for that matter). That
being said, anyone have an AMII that they want to sell? Or at least anyone
know what the market value of one is?

Anyway, just my $0.02 (which is pretty much all it's worth). :)

Chris

---------------------------------
* Windows 95: n.   32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit
patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit
microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of
competition.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:38:30 +0200
From:    filip 
Subject: time-code

>1.  Is it possible to generate and send midi time code or beat clock
out
>of max and into an external device such as an effects processor or midi

>sequencer via a studio 4.  I've looked around the manual , but I can't
>seem to figure out what combination of objects I need to do this.
>

i was using "tcin" in a setup similar to that below for syncronizing a
timeline to a studio4.....maybe this helps.
klaus

max v2;
#N vpatcher 49 40 474 481;
#P message 61 171 14 196617 1;
#P message 78 239 14 196617 0;
#P button 78 221 15 0;
#P newex 61 198 27 196617 gate;
#P message 56 43 14 196617 0;
#P newex 56 21 45 196617 loadbang;
#P user umenu 23 86 64 196647 1 64;
#X add Modem;
#X add '* IAC Bus #1';
#P newex 23 66 43 196617 omsinfo;
#P number 125 150 50 9 0 0 0 3;
#N timeline Untitled 0 50 50 500 400 1;
#TL divider 102;
#TL zoomLevel 4;
#TL timeFormat 2 24;
#TL display 0;
#TL TLEnd;
#P newobj 61 303 44 196617 timeline;
#P newex 77 106 53 196617 tcin 10;
#P newex 121 196 85 196617 setclock jim pass;
#P message 61 279 102 196617 stop \, locate \$1 \, play;
#P newex 78 171 53 196617 t i i;
#P newex 77 129 27 196617 >> 1;
#P newex 78 150 27 196617 - 0;
#P comment 176 151 100 196617 define offset for timeline;
#P connect 14 0 15 0;
#P fasten 15 0 13 0 83 258 95 258 95 193 66 193;
#P connect 12 0 9 1;
#P connect 16 0 13 0;
#P connect 6 0 2 0;
#P connect 4 0 7 0;
#P connect 3 0 13 1;
#P connect 3 1 5 0;
#P connect 2 0 1 0;
#P connect 13 0 4 0;
#P connect 13 0 14 0;
#P connect 1 0 3 0;
#P connect 8 0 1 1;
#P connect 10 1 6 0;
#P connect 9 0 10 0;
#P connect 11 0 12 0;
#P pop;

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:02:54 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: "UNAUTHORIZED NOTE DUMP"

>Well, I'm running MAX 3.0 on a powerbook 160: pretty old, I know. =

>Anyway, I start my "algorithm" with a toggle switch, and the =

>first thing I hear before I hear what I want to hear is a 0.5 =

>second "note dump" of all MIDI channels playing a beautiful =

>chaos (heard immediately upon pressing the toggle switch ON).  =

>While I like beautiful chaos, I like to regulate it as well.  =

>Any ideas on what's causing this and/or how to get rid of it?  =

>greg hall

*You* created the algorithm; therefore it's coming from the
algorithm somewhere (probably).  I would start by disconnecting
various parts of it and locate the source.  It could be that
some initial values are incorrectly stored.  Try monitoring
that initial output with a print or a capture object for some
clues.  If the capture or print doesn't show the problem, then
it's probably external (in your gear) and not the Max patch.

Stephen Kay
The MegaMAX Collection of Objects: http://www.musikinetix.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:43:39 +0100
From:    Klien V 
Subject: 

dear people

what i want to do:

a piece, that changes its overall temporal structure while being
performed.

the music and performance is partly set up out of prefabricated modules of
music, movements that change their position in time, are repeated etc. i
have been thinking about programming a (constantly updated) monitor-
cue-sheet for the musicians and performers in max, as the time/line of max
is very hard to read from a larger distance.

the problem:

how can i get hold of the data of the new position on the timeline of a
module as i want the cue-sheet to be updated before the event (the module)
starts.(obviously)
i.e. I would need access to the data in the "Locate to event" pop-up menu
of the timeline, while everything is running.

e.g.: The timeline is playing. I add a new event with the mouse onto the
timeline, 1 min infront of the locator. -> the some graphic represantation
of it should appear on the monitor-cue-sheet
-> how do I do that?
-> any other suggestions?

cheers

volkmar

******************************************
Volkmar Klien
City University
London

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:05:32 +0200
From:    "Dr. Karlheinz Essl" 
Subject: Subject: movement detection->MIDI

Roald Baudoux asked:

> What is the best movement detection system available for an affordable
> price? (I-Cube, Midi Creator/Midi Gesture, SoundBeam or another one)?

Just my two pennies:

Be aware that ultrasonic sensors (such as I-Cube's FarReach) are producing
enervating clicking noises that makes them inapprobriate for sound
installations.

Cheers,

   Dr. Karlheinz Essl - Composer
   Vienna / Austria
   Studio for Advanced Music & Media Technology
   http://www.essl.at/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:36:01 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: Re: Am I crazy? re: news part I and II

>>Furthermore, imagine what would happen if it became a
>>successful Windows product, and suddenly sales were great
>>enough that David Z./Cycling '74 could actually hire and put
>>*more than one person* on further development,

>
> So, after a few years of successful Windoze sales, the heads of Cycling=

>'74 get together and say:"Hrm, we are making oodles of profit via our
>Windoze sales, and, although the margin is the same, we only make 1/10th=

>with our Macintrash sales. I have a fantastic idea... lets save some $$
and
>ditch our Mac R&D."
>

Isn't this kind of paranoia is a little out-of-date, especially
with the iMac and some other decisions Apple has made recently?
Furthermore,
you've got companies like Cakewalk, traditionally all-Windows, making
the attempt to capture part of the Mac Market (Metro, Overture). It's not=

like Adobe or any important companies ever abandoned the Mac.  Sure, when=

new companies start out, they are more likely to target the Windows =

market, but duh?

>>and support of all those whacky digi cards? That would be a good thing.=

>I'm really not convinced who is more evil, Microsoft or Digidesign. I
would
>be more than happy to see some other company squeeze them out of market
>share (like Korg, Sonorus, MOTU, or anyone else for that matter).

Actually, that's what I mean by 'digi cards' - I was not referring to
Digidesign.  I meant the huge amount of time and effort that undoubtedly
goes into supporting every one of those various companies diverse and
different cards - with more on the way.

Stephen Kay

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:54:41 +0200
From:    Martin Grube 
Subject: Re: MSP Audio Sync

----------
>From: Michael Sweet 
>To: MAX@LISTS.MCGILL.CA
>Subject: MSP Audio Sync
>Date: Die, 15. Sep 1998 16:15 Uhr
>

>Can MSP sync to another source like a SMPTE Slave Driver or Digital Time
>Piece?  Has anyone had any experience with MSP and trying to sync audio to
>SMPTE?  Is it possible or will it be possible in future releases?
>
>Thanks -
>Michael Sweet
>
I think this depends on the hardware you're using. The only devices that
achieve real chase synchronization with the smpte slave driver are the
digidesign 881/2/8 I/O's but I don't know if they're supported by MSP. But
if you have a audio card with digi inputs (like AM III) you can feed a
(digital) audio signal to them and your audio played from MSP is sync'd to
that signal (because there's only one sample clock). This could be e.g. a
silent audio clock derived from a word clock or video clock source or a
SP/DIF signal from a DAT recorder.

Martin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:54:35 +0200
From:    Martin Grube 
Subject: list-editor

>
>Date:    Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:04:35 +0200
>From:    Roland Cahen & Ruth Sefton-Green 
>Subject: list-editor
>
>Are you talking of CollList
>Unfortunately, it appears to be quite costly
>How much ?
>and  I have heard it was quite bugged.
>How much ??
>
>Roland Cahen
>
>------------------------------
I buyed a colllist some weeks ago from
"Roland Hemming" .
The liscence fee is =A3 100 but for its features it's worth it.
On the other hand it looks like the're some bugs when used on a PPC with
MaxFAT.
Input of smpte values does't work correctly and I encountered crashes when
editing a list while running timecode was fed to the inlet.

Is anyone here who also uses collist and made some experience (on a PPC) ?
Is your version working fine ?

Martin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:47:43 +0200
From:    Martin Grube 
Subject: sfplay~ crash

I use several sfplay~ objects to play various sound files at the same time.
Open (or preload) messages with a filename are dynamically sent to these
objects and after a certaim amount of tome a play command is issued. After a
lot of crashes I made some tests with a single sfplay~ object and found out
that a crash occurs regularly when sending an open message to sfplay~ trying
to open a file that is already open and still playing. The debugger then
prompts the following message:

PowerPC access exception at ...          sfplay_convert +0000C

Now I make sure to close each file after playing is finished, and this seems
to work.
But from time to time when playing several files simultaneously it ends up
in the same debugger line when using the preload message with a filename
(i.e. the file has not been opened before with open). There's either a
conflict between the preload command and other sound files playing or
probably a play cue command comes before the preload is completed and leads
to the crash.
Is there a way to prevent sfplay~ from crashing ?

Martin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:51:11 -0000
From:    Frederic Murray 
Subject: Window flags messages to thispatcher/hide the padlock?

Hello Maxers,

is there a message for hide (and show) the padlock without hide close
box and title bar?

Thank you

Frederic Murray
Etudiant en musique
Universite Laval, Quebec
aae052@agora.ulaval.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:09:24 -0000
From:    Frederic Murray 
Subject: Detonate bug/share data

>>the max 3.5 addendum reads (page 46): "Any detonate object with the same
>>name argument will share the same event data".
>>
>>i never managed to get this to work. seems like data is never shared, even
>>when the name arguments of two "detonate" objects are identical.
>
>It doesn't work. I've admitted this before. I hope you'll accept my
>apologies, and we can move forward.
>
>David Z.

David, do you want to make it available in a future version of MAX?
It could be very useful because we don't have to use write
and read messages for share the data. So, in real time it
could be fantastic.

Thank you

Frederic Murray
aae052@agora.ulaval.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:11:29 +1000
From:    David Rodger 
Subject: Re: movement detection->MIDI

>Date:    Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:21:10 +0100
>From:    Roald Baudoux 
>Subject: movement detection->MIDI
>
>What is the best movement detection system available for an affordable
>price? (I-Cube, Midi Creator/Midi Gesture, SoundBeam or another one)?

There are two main "paradigms" in motion capture:
(1) detection of movement in a specific position or along a specific axis,
    regardless of what is causing the movement; and
(2) detection of movement of a specific performer or body part, distinct
from
    the movement of any other performer or body part.

With the first, you cannot distinguish who or what is making the movement,
only that the movement has occurred and (usually) its location.

Both require some sort of medium to facilitate detection: ultrasound,
light, magnetic fields, electric fields, biological signals (EEG, EMG, ECG,
etc.), or signals from mechanical devices.  Some are more suitable for (1)
or (2) depending on the implementation (read this table using a
non-proportional font):

Technology   |  Implementation allowing (1)   |  Implementation allowing (2)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acoustic     |  Range-finding                 |  Time-of-flight
(ultrasound) |    (e.g. Soundbeam)            |
             |  Sonar/Doppler shift           |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Biosignal    |  EEG                           |  EMG, EOG, ECG, maybe ERG,
             |  (possible with WaveRider and  |  galvanic skin response
(GSR)
             |  IBVA systems)                 |  (WaveRider does EMG, ECG
and
             |                                |    GSR)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electric     |  loading mode (as with the     |  transmit-mode,
Field        |    Theremin),                  |  passive tags
Sensing      |  shunt-mode                    |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inertial     |                                |  relative
position/orientation
             |                                |  (accelerometers/gyroscopes)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Magnetic     |                                |  Hall Effect sensors
             |                                |  6DOF trackers (expensive)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mechanical   |  floor/wall pressure sensors   |  "BOOM" arms
             |                                |  potentiometers or piezo-
             |                                |    electric or resistive
             |                                |    elements over body joints
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Optical      |  infra-red sensors, light      |  "marker"-based high-speed
             |    beams                       |    camera systems
(expensive)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video        |  detection of luminosity or    |  colour/shape analysis
             |    greyscale regions in video  |    (e.g. STEIM's BigEye)
             |    frame                       |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I highly recommend that you look at Axel Mulder's papers about Human
Movement Tracking Technology:

http://fas.sfu.ca/cs/people/ResearchStaff/amulder/personal/vmi/HMTT.pub.html
  and
http://fas.sfu.ca/cs/people/ResearchStaff/amulder/personal/vmi/HMTT.add.html

Also, his paper on musical applications:
http://fas.sfu.ca/cs/people/ResearchStaff/amulder/personal/vmi/BSCM1.rev.html

Electric Field Sensing is a relatively new technology, based on the
prinicples of the theremin. See:
http://www.media.mit.edu/~physics/

Also, see Joe Paradiso's recently expanded paper in IEEE Spectrum:
http://www.media.mit.edu/~joep/SpectrumWeb/

Then there's my woefully out of date research site which has links to these
and other places:
http://farben.latrobe.edu.au/motion/

Keep in mind that Soundbeam is a specific implementation of a specific
technology.  Boxes like I-Cube and SensorLab are general purpose sensor
interfaces.  Or, if you have decided on a specific technology and
implementation, you can build your own and make it controllable with MIDI
from MAX (finally I'm on-topic!).

References for building your own system can be found at:
http://art.net/~troika/GeekPage.htm
(if this URL is wrong go back to Troika's index.html page and navigate from
there).
Dan O'Sullivan's Physical Computing site:
http://www.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~alumni/dano/physical/physical.html

I hope this information helps.

Regards, David

David Rodger:    Audio Engineering;  Pool Operations;  Aquatics Training
EMAIL:  auricle@alphalink.com.au     WEB:  www.alphalink.com.au/~auricle
RESEARCH  --  Motion Capture in Music  --  farben.latrobe.edu.au/motion/
ADZOHU  -- Music and Dance from Ghana  --  www.alphalink.com.au/~adzohu/
========================================================================
"It is always a thrill to observe music software making its descent from
the rarefied origins of a research tool, reaching its natural level as a
device to aid in the sale of alcoholic beverages."     --David Zicarelli

------------------------------

End of MAX Digest - 14 Sep 1998 to 15 Sep 1998 - Special issue (#1998-1)
************************************************************************