Subject: MAX Digest - 28 Aug 1998 to 29 Aug 1998
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:00:00 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 7 messages totalling 268 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. stretched time
  2. Visual file formats
  3. Fast time-stretching with MSP?
  4. Max have disappeared !!
  5. iMac audio
  6. 2.5.2 Error Type 1 problem, continuing saga
  7. Application Order

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Date:    Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:21:25 -0700
From:    Les Stuck 
Subject: Re: stretched time

Lawrence Casserley wrote:

>>I recall Miller showing me an ISPW patch to do time stretching

 then Richard Dudas piped in:

>Miller may have used a specially-written signal object to do the trick.  I
>don't know. I seem to remember that there's something like this in Ph.
>Manoury's "En Echo" for voice and ISPW. Could you shed some light on this,
>Les?, Serge?, Miller?, Zack?

"En echo" uses normal granular time stretching (which anyone can
build in MSP) and formants-controlling-vocal-synths time-stretching.

The later falls into the analysis/resynthesis category (where we find fft~
& ifft~).
Richard has ported the vocal synths to MSP (although this might be something
you need to rent from IRCAM), but I don't think Miller has ported the
formant~ object, which does the analysis (probably IRCAM property as well).
I sense that Todor Todoroff is porting his additive analsysis object to MSP.
I've also heard Miller do some sicko time stretching using a phase vocoder.
Anyway, there are lots of strategies.

Then Delicate Ear asked:

>what is the difference, in qualitative sound, between fft-stretched audio
>and time-window-stretched audio? I don't think i have ever heard the fft

First of all, let's not forget that *all* of the time-stretching strategies
so far in this thread involve time-windowing. The difference is that in
sampling we hear the actual sample played back briefly through the time
and in analyisis/resynthesis the sound is analyzed during the time-window,
but then only one set of synth control parameters is produced per window.
The subjective result is "smoother" for analysis/resynthesis, since the
is always "on". With granular, either you don't have enough processing power
and you hear the grains (whose rhythm you have to deal with
or you have enough power to play lotsa grains, which is pretty smooth, but
short transients can still sneak through and play a rhythm. Granular does
one advantage in that you don't need 80+ oscillators to get good
response. One grain is enough.

All these windowed approaches have one big problem: the transients.
For percussive sounds (like speech), the best technique is
like Studio Vision's time-compression (a similar technique can be used
if you have Recycle and a sampler). In this technique, the percussive sounds
are cut just before the attack, and these cuts determine the chunks which
be played back. Thus the windowing is sensitive to the content of the

As far as I know, this type of time stretching has not been implemented
in either ISPW-Max/FTS/JMAX or MSP. Some bright soul on the list wanna
hack an MSP external?



Date:    Sat, 29 Aug 1998 07:26:46 EDT
From:    Rjgluck@AOL.COM
Subject: Visual file formats

The pics object is described in the Max Reference Manual as opening "PICS"
files. Can anyone tell me what type of format this is? I understand that the
Pic object reads Pic files and the Movie object reads QT movies, but this
I don't understand.  BTW, has anyone written an object that can read/open
files or is it neccesary to translate Giff files into Pic format to be read

Bob Gluck
Newly in Watervliet, NY and at RPI


Date:    Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:16:45 +0200
From:    Sukandar Kartadinata 
Subject: Re: Fast time-stretching with MSP?

>what is the difference, in qualitative sound, between fft-stretched audio
>and time-window-stretched audio? I don't think i have ever heard the fft

best time-stretch quality I heard was CNMATs additive resynth engine. but
yes, that needs mucho cpu. best budget solution I know is by Edwin v.d.
Heide - fft-based afaik. dunno if he's willing to release it, it runs on a
Motorola DSP board anyway...
oh yes, and he's playing it with a STEIM sensor instrument called the 'MIDI
conductor', a proto-(MichelWaisvisz-)'Hands' using ultrasound, pressure
pads and some switches
now if only I had an email address...
(I have his snailmail address though, so anyone interested e me privately)

Sukandar Kartadinata
Custom Music Technology
Hagenauerstr. 6, 10435 Berlin, 030-44051219


Date:    Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:53:04 +0200
From:    Manuel Poletti 
Subject: Re: Max have disappeared !!

>Date:    Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:29:39 -0700
>From:    Les Stuck 
>Subject: Re: Max have disappeared !!
>Manuel Poletti 
>>I just saved the Max window (unfortunatly to my Max folder) then I quitted
>>Max.When I re-opened the Max folder, Max 3.5.9 was not there anymore !!!
>> 'feel a bit sick...
>I understand that feeling. It seems that either you named "Max 3.5.9"
>so that when you saved the Max window it overwrote the Max application;
>or you did a "Save as=8A" of the Max window and named it "Max 3.5.9" so
>it overwrote the application. Otherwise, I can't repeat this problem. Can

It's exactly what happened.I'll call Max "Brigitte" now.
Thank you, Les, for the support (I wasn't at Ircam when it happened)


Manuel Poletti

tel: 33 (0)1 44 78 16 05


address: 1, Place Igor Stravinsky
              75004 Paris
email :
tel :       33 (0)1 44 78 49 62
fax :      33 (0)1 44 78 15 40
(english version)


Date:    Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:17:48 +0000
From:    Johnny DeKam 
Subject: iMac audio

>I know that the iMac is not a perfect solution for audio but I
>want to make only some basic work with MSP without sound card etc..
>I also know that Opcode is planning to support iMac with MIDI.
>Anybody have try the demo of MSP on a iMac? Any idea of this?

According to apple, the iMac has the highest quality DAC of any Macintosh in

Based on Cirrus Logic's new "Crystal" CS4211 audio  chip.
I lift this from Cirrus's press release:

"Enabling a superior end-user experience, the new Crystal chip delivers
high-performance audio quality that is equivalent to audiophile-level stereo

According to Cirrus Logic, the CS4211 processes audio at a dynamic range of
93 dB unweighted and 96 dB A-weighted. PC'98 standards only require a
dynamic range of 80 dB A-weighted. The device also has a total harmonic
distortion level of 85 dB THD, much lower than the PC'98 requirement of 60
dB THD. This level of digital audio processing allows iMac users to connect
their computers to powerful, high-fidelity equipment to mix different sound
sources and hear the level of audio quality they would get from a CD player.

Here is the article:

So perhaps the iMac will be a great MSP machine...(?)

- Johnny DeKam


Date:    Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:50:20 -0700
From:    peter elsea 
Subject: Re: 2.5.2 Error Type 1 problem, continuing saga

Sounds like classic extension conflicts-
Check that you don't have two copies of midimanager or OMS (And especially
not midimanager and OMSmididriver)
If that's not it, disable all extensions, and add them one at a time.
The 7.6 install gives you a lot of extensions you don't really need, like

Peter Elsea
Director of Electronic Music Studios
University of California, Santa Cruz


Date:    Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:02:23 -0500
From:    "Frank L. Thiel" 
Subject: Application Order

Hello all,

   This is more of a Mac than a MAX question, but it came about while using
MAX, so here goes.  I am somewhat unfamiliar with the technical particulars
of the Mac OS, but I believe The Mac keeps a table to tell it which
application to launch with a particular creator code.  Since all of the MAX
applications seem to use the same "max2" creator code, the system picks one
(Max68K3.5.9, MaxFAT3.5.9, MaxPlayFAT3,5,9, etc.) when a patch is double
clicked.  It generally picks the one I do not want.  Certainly a solution
is to delete all but the application I use, if I only needed one.  Since I
need more than one MAX, I assume there is some way to edit the system
application table to specify the order that the Mac uses so that it favors
the app I most interested in (MaxFAT3.5.9).  Thanks in advance for the
help.  I am using OS8.1.


Frank L. Thiel
School of Music
University of Texas at Austin


End of MAX Digest - 28 Aug 1998 to 29 Aug 1998