Subject: MAX Digest - 4 Aug 1998 to 5 Aug 1998
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:00:01 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
     
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 13 messages totalling 529 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. snd: soundCmd err -624
  2. MOTU 2408 yet again.
  3. u men u wi erd ness ca
  4. JAZ drives...
  5. ircam ftp
  6. umenu wierdness & bang bang bang
  7. preze tb ug
  8. catching up
  9. floats' displayed precision?
 10. menubar and standalone apllications.
 11. Umenu weirdness
 12. menubar and standalone applications.
 13. MAX and childrens

McGill is running a new version of LISTSERV (1.8c on Windows NT).
Information is available on the WEB at http://www.mcgill.ca/cc/listserv

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Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:05:41 +0800
From:    jmustard@CYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU
Subject: snd: soundCmd err -624

hi all,
snd: soundCmd err -624
i keep getting this error message, but not sure exactly what it means.
the result is that i get only intermittent triggering of samples and
often the previous loaded one triggered instead of intended current
sample. any ideas?
please put your heads to this one - d day very soon
ta
mustard

jmustard@cyllene.uwa.edu.au

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:42:37 -0400
From:    David Crandall 
Subject: Re: MOTU 2408 yet again.

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Chris Murtagh Hrdc-drhc wrote:

> Also, a while back there was someone who was doing a survey on removable
> media (JAZ Vs SyJet).... Any results?( I've totally given up on my SyJet).

That would be me, and the results were unconclusive.  Not that many
replies, and people seemed to be evenly distributed among those who had
internal or external drives of both brands, and loved and hated them.
The anecdotal evidence also seemed to indicate that pampering or abusing
them didn't seem to matter much, you either had a good'un or a bad'un.

I decided the best solution was to get a reconditioned Jaz from J&R
Computer World in NYC (~$200), (with a 1 yr warranty) and get their
(J&R's) 3-yr extended warranty for an extra $45. That price, for a drive
and cartridge, is the same as Iomega's factory price for a recon drive
*without* a cartridge. At least this was true in Feb., when I made the
buy.

The upshot is, we've now seen the advent of the disposable hard drive.

dc

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:45:37 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 
Subject: u men u wi erd ness ca

>
>Date:    Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:46:37 -0500
>From:    evening 
>Subject: umenu wierdness
>Has anyone experienced strange behavior using "umenu"?
>
>I've had entered items not appear at all, disappear after I've edited
>other items, & the whole damn program disappear when using it. I mean
>REALLY disappear! no error type XX or freezes - just POOF!
>
>maybe there is an update I'm missing?

!ntel        = m  zu d b! wh t 1 doez   n fa d w!th une  ktd s!  ! nz
hensz h m  zs        ++

>help would me much appreciated.
>
>jmw

ed!t !n teczt mode. !t = b!paszez dze problm ment!ond abov + verkx

>Date:    Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:54:25 -0400
>From:    Stephen Kay 
>Subject: Re: umenu wierdness

>Yes, I've also had problems.  But make sure that the "number of items"
>field is set correctly.  If you have it set to 64 and enter more items,
>weird behaviour is sure to result.

w!ll not hlp. 1nz krasch - krasch repeatedl+e.
az !n poof. ed!t !n teczt mode. !t = verkx + b!paszez dze
problm ment!ond abov.

!ntel        = m  zu d b! wh t 1 doez   n fa d w!th une  ktd s!  ! nz
hensz h m  zs        ++

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:55:13 +0200
From:    Robert Henke 
Subject: JAZ drives...

> Also, a while back there was someone who was doing a survey on removable
> media (JAZ Vs SyJet).... Any results?( I've totally given up on my =
SyJet).
>
..  i use 1 Gbyte JAZ drive/media for HD recording and i never had any
trouble.
... i use 2 Gbyte JAZ drive/media for HD recording at a mastering place
(so i never have more than 4 tracks and only a few cuts ) and we have
troubles without end !!!!! Including media which is no more formatible...!

Its also impossible to use  a 1 Gbyte JAZ in a 2 Gbyte drive for audio (
you can read files but it is incredibly slow, like an ancient 20 Mbyte 5"
HD...)

rob.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:12:31 +0200
From:    Sukandar Kartadinata 
Subject: Re: ircam ftp

>I'm having trouble logging on to the IRCAM ftp site. I tried this
>address:
>
>ftp://ftp.ircam.fr/pub/forumnet/max
>
>for several days and I couldn't get in. Is it locked out to anonymous
>users? Is there any other Max ftp site out there? Something in the USA
>perhaps?
>

I've never managed to get into ircam....
try http://www.employees.org/~max/mirror/IRCAM/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sukandar Kartadinata
Custom Music Technology
Hagenauerstr. 6, 10435 Berlin, 030-44051219
http://members.xoom.com/Sukandar/vestibulear.html
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:12:37 -0400
From:    Michael Sweet 
Subject: Re: umenu wierdness & bang bang bang

I wrote about this problem a few weeks ago but nobody replied (see below).
It seems to me these are the same problem.  Also if you're drawing to a
pics window, it will also stop updating and look like it freezes even
though it you max patch is still performing calculations....

I assumed since nobody replied I was using a bad external somewhere that
would stop the drawing in the graphics port.

By the way, the refresh draw still works when max decides to crash like
this, i.e. if you change a umenu selection, cover it with another window,
and then uncover the window the umenu will draw in it's correct position....

--Michael Sweet

>Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:30:19 -0400
>From: Michael Sweet 
>Subject: Losing Screen Re-draw Inside a Max Patch w. MSP
>
>Lately I've been running large max patches using MSP and whenever I tax
>the system pretty hard max stops updating my windows.  It's seems the
>highlighting color becomes white...  I.E. if I change a umenu object to a
>new selection it will functionally change but will not redraw the new menu
>selection.
>
>Has anyone had trouble with this as well, and is there a message that I
>can send max to tell it to start redrawing again without having to reboot
>max?
>
>Thanks -
>
>--Michael Sweet
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:17:59 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 
Subject: preze tb ug

when after a prezet load operation
one storez or selektz a prezet
- dze lazt selektd prezet number
[b4 the load operat!on]
bkomz dottd az well - although one cannot selekt !t.
!f the w!ndow = redrawn dzen !t = d!ssapearz.

d!sz = not!sabl when dze prezet loadd doeznt
konta!n dze prezet number selektd b4 dze load operat!on.

- !t kreatez dze !mpress!on dzere = 1 prezet
ztored at 1 lokat!on when !n fakt dzere !znt 1.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:58:36 -0700
From:    Peter Elsea 
Subject: catching up

Been off driving around the USA, came back to read 6 weeks worth of
digests. And I thought I saw flames  in Florida!  The way my summer is
shaping up, I'll only be reading email about once a week, so anyone who
wants to contact me please be patient.

Some issues I can comment on-

Keeping data together-
Someone was asking about how to keep data and a timestamp together and was
advised to make a list. I've also found it useful to to put such things in
a coll and pass the address in the coll around, advantages:
If ordering is important, the coll next command is useful.
You can use the timestamp as the address and find events by time.
You can edit parts of the data (like the duration of a note) later.

Ken Kinard Asks:
>I'm having trouble logging on to the IRCAM ftp site. I tried this
>address: >ftp://ftp.ircam.fr/pub/forumnet/max
>for several days and I couldn't get in.

It isn't working from here either- the USA mirror is
ftp://ftp.employees.org/max/mirror/IRCAM and is working this morning.

Max and floats:
There was a  discussion of this in May or thereabouts. The problem is
binary floating point numbers can only represent a finite number of
fractions, and the number of values a fraction can take is infinite. To
find out more than you would ever want to know about floating point numbers
check out http://suburbia.net/~billm/floating-point/index.html
Anyway, if you  stretch a float box in Max, you will likely discover digits
you didn't know were there. These tiny errors usually cause no trouble, but
if you do anything cumulative, like trying to multilpy the results of FP
division to get the original number back, the results can bite you. (Of
course everything is useful- most chaos generators depend on FP
imprecisions to produce those cute patterns.) The way to keep your numbers
looking pretty is to round them and (Here comes the plug) there's an
Lobject that does that. Lround implements the "round to nearest or even"
algorithm and lets you specify the precision. To display 11.8 send the
11.799998 through Lround 1.

(Lobjects for Max can be found at ftp://arts.ucsc.edu/pub/ems/Lobjects )
(By the way, I notice Microsoft has co-opted my name "Lobjects", and they
didn't even ask me. I guess in order to keep their lawyers calm, I'll have
to start saying "Lobjects for Max")

Button weirdness
As long as we are reporting bugs, I have also seen buttons in saved patches
inexplicably reload filling most of the screen. When it's like this you
can't resize it.

Umenu weirdness
Also, Umenus can be touchy about punctuation. For instance, if you once
start a line with a colon, you 'll never see that line or be able to add
any more. (They're not as bad as colls though.) PQE's tip of the day- when
making large umenus or colls, type the text in bbedit or some such, then
paste them in. That way you don't loose most of your work when some typo
crashes the the whole thing. You also get nice find and replace or GREP
features.

Peter Elsea
Electronic Music Studios
University of California, Santa Cruz
http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/index.html
 elsea@cats.ucsc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:41:39 +0200
From:    Peter Castine 
Subject: Re: floats' displayed precision?

Note that the scare quotes have been removed from Subject: header.

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:18:40 -0400 Burton Alexandre
 wrote:
>
> huh, i beleive this popped up recently, but i don't remember what was the
>final story (i should have paid more attention!). I'm trying to store the
>number 11.8 in a coll, and it gets "unrounded" to 11.799998.

The number is *not* getting "unrounded". It is getting *rounded*. And
correctly, at that.

Think BINARY!
Think BINARY!!
Think BINARY!!!!

Here's the dope. Listen carefully, I'm only going to say this once:

11.8 in decimal notation has a terminating decimal representation of the
fractional part (0.8). In binary, the fractional part doesn't terminate
(it's something like .1100110011001100110011001100...).

Since your computer has only finite capacity for representing a number,
the fractional part gets truncated. Max uses 32-bit floating point
numbers, which leaves less than 20 bits to represent the fractional part
in your example. But it doesn't matter how many bits you use, the value
you have is _close_ to 11.8, but you can't represent that value exactly.
It's the same problem you have with representing 1/3 as a decimal
fraction: 0.3333 is _close_, 0.33333333333 is closer, but you never get
the exact value.

The above is slightly simplified, but anyone who cares about the details
probably knows them already.

I dunno, binary computers have been with us for over half a century, I
had binary arithmetic in grade school (which is getting closer to a half
century ago then I care to think about), and people still get surprised
about artifacts of binary arithmetic. Oh, well.-\

There is a solution for all of this:

I suspect Max uses the standard C library (printf & Co.) for converting
floating point values to an ASCII representation. The representation in a
float number box is very much like printf()'s default output. If David Z.
could be convinced that it were an important feature, float number boxes
could be taught to understand an "accuracy" message, which would specify
the maximum number of digits after the decimal point to display. If a
number box only display one or two decimal digits after the decimal
point, the display would be rounded (in decimal) back to 11.8, even
though the 32-bit floating point representation really is closer to
11.799998.

Of course, somebody else could write an enhanced float number box with
this featurelet. Happy hacking.

Cheers,

Peter -- muttering something to himself about "what do they teach kids at
school nowadays?"

---------------- http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~pcastine/ ----------------
Dr. Peter Castine          | Whenever a theory appears to you as the
pcastine@prz.tu-berlin.de  | only possible one, take this as a sign that
                           | you have neither understood the theory nor
                           | the problem which it was intended to solve.
                           |                              -- Karl Popper

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:20:57 +0100
From:    Trond & Laila Linde Lossius 
Subject: menubar and standalone apllications.

Two questions:

1. Is there any way to remove "Status" from the Windows menu in a stand
alone application that uses menubar? I've tried ResEdit, but as far as I
can see, the menubar menus does not show up in ResEdit.

2. Is it possible to add new items to the Windows menu when using
menubar? I'm making an application using three windows as user
interfaces, and would like to be able to open them from the Windows
menu, much the same way as the upper 5 items in Netscape Communicator
menu works.

Thanks!

Trond L.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:53:52 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: Umenu weirdness

>Peter Elsea
>Umenu weirdness
>Also, Umenus can be touchy about punctuation. For instance, if you once
>start a line with a colon, you 'll never see that line or be able to add=

>any more. (They're not as bad as colls though.) PQE's tip of the day- wh=
en
>making large umenus or colls, type the text in bbedit or some such, then=

>paste them in. That way you don't loose most of your work when some typo=

>crashes the the whole thing. You also get nice find and replace or GREP
>features.

I find Excel to be excellent for this - you can easily prepare a large co=
ll
file or menu, replicate the necessary commans and semi-colons down entire=

columns, etc.  Then just paste the whole thing into a coll/menu.  Easy to=

edit and add to, also.  And when your whole Max patch is corrupted
(hah - never) you still have the .xl file.

Stephen Kay

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:54:04 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: menubar and standalone applications.

>1. Is there any way to remove "Status" from the Windows menu in a stand
>alone application that uses menubar? I've tried ResEdit, but as far as I=

>can see, the menubar menus does not show up in ResEdit.

Yes.  This is undocumented, but in 3.5.x, you can send max a message
which removes the status items, but only in a compiled app.  Now, I
can't find this info anywhere, so I'm going by memory - maybe someone
will correct me if I'm wrong, but type:

;max status 1  (or is it 0)?

into a message box, and loadbang it when your compiled app opens.
In fact, you can use a toggle to add/remove the item, so that perhaps
for debug purposes you can bring the window back when you need it.

>2. Is it possible to add new items to the Windows menu when using
>menubar? I'm making an application using three windows as user
>interfaces, and would like to be able to open them from the Windows
>menu, much the same way as the upper 5 items in Netscape Communicator
>menu works.

Roland Hemming had a good way of doing this - I repeat it here:

>Here is how to have your MAX application open up with no open windows. Y=
ou
>need MAX 3.5. What you must do is make a patcher with a send object that=

>sends to a thispatcher object on your root level patcher in your
>application.

>When you are ready to make your app a collective send your patcher a
>'thiswindow' message to move it off the screen by a couple of thousand
>pixels. Then save and 'compile' your patcher. It will then open up off
>screen.

>Or make your root level patcher look like a start-up screen and then use=

>loadbang or active to send a message to thispatcher to send it off scree=
n.

>I also tried to make use of the 'hated' windows menu. I make it display
all
>my program's windows regardless of whether they are open or not. What I
did
>was set up a data structure with the open status and coords of each wind=
ow
>in my app. When a user closes a window, I send it off screen and open it=

>again. When the user selects it from the windows menu it becomes active
and
>I shove it back on screen.

Stephen Kay

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:49:17 -0000
From:    Frederic Murray 
Subject: MAX and childrens

Hello,

excuse my english

I have to work with childrens and MAX in a University project. It's a
initiation to the object programming of MAX. So childrens will have to
deal with MIDI and other things of MAX...
Someone have experience on MAX and childrens? Any URL, text or comment
is welcome. Please, email me personally.

Thank you

Frederic Murray
Etudiant en musique
Universite Laval, Quebec
aae052@agora.ulaval.ca

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End of MAX Digest - 4 Aug 1998 to 5 Aug 1998
********************************************