Subject: MAX Digest - 28 Jul 1998 to 29 Jul 1998
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:00:00 -0400
From: Automatic digest processor 
Reply-To: MAX - Interactive Music/Multimedia Standard Environments
     
To: Recipients of MAX digests 

There are 9 messages totalling 355 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. dyn (2)
  2. joysticks (3)
  3. MAX Digest - 26 Jul 1998 to 27 Jul 1998
  4. Joysticks for Max/Mac? (2)
  5. PCI-Serial cards.....

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Date:    Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:40:56 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 
Subject: dyn

>From:    subcontrol@MUU.AUTONO.NET

>just finished reading this months max lists
>and i found something great!
>this dynamic maxing gives me tri
>how about deleting objects, patch cords dynamically? possible?

kan kreate konnekt!onz d!nam!kall+e.
kan kreate an! objekt d!nam!kall+e.
kan not delete c objektz d!nam!kall+e - !t appearz.
[unlesz proseed !n 1 b!t lesz d!nam!k fash!on]
wh!ch = dze onl+e objektz worth delet!ng.
predef!nd objektz = fa!ld attempt at an!mat!on.

>i want to program max with some other interface than mouse and keyboard:
>sensor system that creates control data in max to further program max
>but it seems to be tricky figure out how is the a particular objects number
>changing as new objects are introduced

= tr!kk+e !f !ntent = 2 kreate
dze eku!v ov what 1 would kreate v!a
mousz + ke!board. elsz !t = untr!kk+e.
houevr muzt proseed !n 1 b!t lesz d!nam!k fash!on
unlesz delet!ng c objektz = poszbl w!thout unload!ng dze patch

dze env!ronment d!ktatez dze env!ronment

+ humanzsukc.x

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Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:49:59 -0400
From:    Burton Alexandre 
Subject: Re: joysticks

> Just got the digest -- it seems that there is some confusion over the
> current state of the art of joysticks for Macs.  There is no convolution
> required to connect a SideWinder to a Mac -- Microsoft already makes an
> ADB-compatible version (with software, to boot!).

 Well, i like the concept of having my unwinder connect to the rest of my
setup as a MIDI device. In digital mode, it gives ~8bits of resolution on
each of 4 axis, plus all the buttons & the hat in standard MIDI. I
remember the goldbrick and i would not want to mess with an ADB control
panel again...

                                                Alex Burton.

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Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:24:14 +0200
From:    Oeyvind Brandtsegg 
Subject: Re: dyn

> >how about deleting objects, patch cords dynamically? possible?
>
> kan kreate konnekt!onz d!nam!kall+e.
> kan kreate an! objekt d!nam!kall+e.
> kan not delete c objektz d!nam!kall+e - !t appearz.
> [unlesz proseed !n 1 b!t lesz d!nam!k fash!on]
> wh!ch = dze onl+e objektz worth delet!ng.
> predef!nd objektz = fa!ld attempt at an!mat!on.
>

Just an idea...

How about having a "template" bpatcher, with only a receive object connected
to
a thispatcher in it.
This bpatcher could be used as a "tray" for holding the objects that should
be
dynamically delete-able.
This bpatcher would be loaded dynamically a la Kay/Hemming.
Objects could be created by the same method inside this dynamically
allocated
bpatcher.
One could add receive objects dynamically, and perhaps in this way make it
easier to distinguish between different instances of the same template/tray
patch.

Someone tell me if I'm way off ...
Or do antiorp mean that the bpatcher kind of workaround is "1 b!t lesz
d!nam!k
fash!on" ?

As to deleting patch cords, I guess you would have to delete the whole
subpatcher, and start over (?).
Unless someone can shed dome light on more messages to thispatcher ????
There seem to be an undo message, among others. How to use it ?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:11:28 -0700
From:    Richard Zvonar 
Subject: Re: joysticks

I'm interested in knowing more about the mechanical quality or "feel" of
these various joysticks:  such matters as the length of the lever
(therefore the length of the excursion of the pan), the degree of
resistance (how "tight" or "loose"), and the shape of the panning surface
(circular or rectangular).  This last issue is especially important to me.
I'd prefer a controller which isn't biased toward a rectangular grid, but
which has a good feel for navigating in a polar coordinate system.  I've
tried controllers which, due to their mechanical construction, practically
force you to move parallel to X or Y axis. Diagonal or circular movements
are more difficult (like operating an "Etch-a-sketch").  Quick test: move
the joystick through a 360 degree path, tracing the perimeter of the
panning area.  Does it move in a circle or a square?

______________________________________________________________________________
Richard Zvonar, PhD                              zvonar@LCSaudio.com
(818) 788-2202 voice                             zvonar@well.com
(818) 788-2203 fax                               zvonar@alum.mit.edu

                          http://www.well.com/~zvonar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:18:00 -0400
From:    baxtrr 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 26 Jul 1998 to 27 Jul 1998

>Date:    Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:16:09 -0400
>From:    Stephen Kay 
>Subject: joystick
>
>Peter Nyboer:
>>Does it have to be a game controller?  The Yamaha TG33 synth has a
joystic=
k
>>MIDI controller on it.  Obviously, picking one of these up (they were made
>>in the late 80's) is a somewhat expensive route to get a joystick, but you
>>get a pretty useful synth with it, and no hacking necessary!
>
>Apparently, yes, it must be a game controller.
>
>I have several Korg keyboards (surprise, to those who know my past).  They
>all come outfitted with joysticks.  The difference between these as
>implemented on a keyboard and as implemented for a game controller is
>that the keyboard units "snap back" to a center position when released.
>They also have no readily available button(s) to be depressed while
>being activated.
>
>Furthermore, after spending the better part of a day attempting to create
>some hysteresis or other such action to negate the "return to center"
>effect (undoable in my opinion), I need a game controller.

you have mistaken the bidirectional controllers of korg keyboards for true
joysticks, and they are not. they are merely convenient arrangements of
return-to-zero controls, unsuited for true xy use. i can see why they would
frustrate you; it is rather like trying to hammer nails with a pair of
pliers.

however, true joysticks on synthesizers are not particularly rare, thanks
to the public's brief love affair with vector synthesis in the 1980s. viz:

the yamaha tg33 is an excellent suggestion, as it carries the lowest pawn
shop price and you do get a synthesizer in the bargain (although not one i
would use personally, but that's a matter of taste, apologies to peter).
the sy22 and sy35 are keyboard versions that also have joysticks and
occasionally surface in back rooms for very little money.

the korg wavestation also has a very good joystick on both its keyboard and
a/d rack versions (although the rack joystick is very small and not very
smooth in operation). it has no hysteresis and like the tg33 et alii offers
standard 7 bit resolution on separate controllers for x and y: by
tradition, cc 16 and 17.

if you wish to throw a lot of money at the problem consider the prophet vs,
whose joystick has 14 bit resolution and will only cost you between 600 and
3000 dollars for the box it is attached to, depending on the degree of
brokenness and the fanaticism of the seller. (someone needs to model a vs
in msp and restore sanity to our world. quickly!)

one final suggestion--the technics sx-wsa1, which was reviewed in the
computer music journal (fall 1996 issue vol 20 no 3) can be found very
cheaply and has two joysticks, one with center hysteresis and one
without--and the one without has a "to center" button that recenters the
ball in internal logic and over midi. the unit also features three wheels
and a variety of other controllers, albeit in a very large and rather heavy
keyboard console weighted down with a disk drive, an onboard sequencer,
general midi, and other frou frou.

i would suspect, to be fair, that any or all of these may be very large and
cumbersome in comparison to your needs, in which case the suggestions made
elsewhere on adapting adb devices are probably better suited to you.

however, my own experience with adb adaptations have been limited to
explorations using mousestate. i have found them rather limited; why not
just use a mouse or trackball in such a case? so i have had the most
satisfaction from midi joysticks, and would prefer that they not be ignored
completely.

we must continue to wait for a standalone joystick controller for midi,
which seems no nearer now than it did ten years ago. h=E9las.

bax

--
baxtrr the cd muse
   baxtrr@cdmuse.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:56:32 +0200
From:    Philippe Montémont 
Subject: Joysticks for Max/Mac?

Hello all,

About Stephen question, I often use the Gravis MouseStick II (ADB, 85 mA
required...), which is an optical system:

Stick control options:

Monitor auto center, Wiondow auto-center, slow glide, med. glide, fast
glide, 4 directions Keystroke, 8 directions Keystroke & custom.

there are 5 buttons configurable.

Please see:

http://www.gravis.com/products/js_macmousestick2.html

Philippe
ph_m@club-internet.fr

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:56:15 +0100
From:    "Sebastian Oschatz, meso" 
Subject: Re: Joysticks for Max/Mac?

> From:    Gordon Adams 
> Subject: Joysticks for Max/Mac?
>
> Just got the digest -- it seems that there is some confusion over the
> current state of the art of joysticks for Macs.  There is no convolution
> required to connect a SideWinder to a Mac -- Microsoft already makes an
> ADB-compatible version (with software, to boot!).  There are also other
> models, about which I know less (Gravis [www.gravis.com] has a very
> well-respected line of Mac-compatible joysticks), but the SideWinder is
> most definitely Mac (and MAX) friendly, and, at US$70 - $80, a
> significantly more cost-effective joystick than I-Cube.
>
> Following is the text of email I sent privately to Steven Kay (slightly
> edited):
>
> I highly recommend the SideWinder Pro as a joystick input device (in
spite
> of the usual misgivings about Microsoft).  It plugs into the ADB port,
and
> joystick functions can be mapped to keystrokes.  It does this by means of
> an editor application (there is an extension, but I believe that the
> application needs to be running in the background).

oops, this threads corresponds nicely to a project, i am working on
currently...

do you know, if its possible to connect 3 (!) sidewinder to one mac at the
same time?
 the hardware side should be easy using adb, but what bothers me, if its
possible to get separate data from each stick in max.

> Every axis of a normal joystick is connected to a potentiometer.
> The easiest way to acces that potentiometer is with a midifader box:  cut
> the connections to two of the faders and connect the potentiometer of the
> joysticks instead.
> A good faderbox for all these jobs is the "Cooper Fader Master" which
> provides 8 Faders. The value of the external potentiometers are quite
> uncritical ( R >1k , maybee up to 100k ) so it should work with allmost
> every joystick.

we once succesfully dismantled a kurzweil k5000 macro control programmer
which gave 16 midi controllers.
all controller numbers are fixed, and there are no programmable options,
but this is actually a plus when using max.
the box  is also very much cheaper than the jl cooper box.

actually for the joystick problem i would prefer a plug and play solution
without soldering.

sebastian oschatz

w w w .  m e s o  .  n e t

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:40:53 -0800
From:    Alex Stahl 
Subject: Re: joysticks

>I have several Korg keyboards (surprise, to those who know my past).  They
>all come outfitted with joysticks.  The difference between these as
>implemented on a keyboard and as implemented for a game controller is
>that the keyboard units "snap back" to a center position when released.

For what little it's worth, it's easy to remove the springs that cause the
return-to-center action. I've done this on a few pitch bend wheels and cheap
game controllers.

It's also quite possible to wire a standard PC joystick (as long as it's
"analog", meaning, "has potentiometers") to the continuous controller pedal
jacks on many synths and MIDI fader boxes.
Pedal jacks usually have +5 volts, "wiper" and ground on a TRS jack.
Joysticks are often just a couple pots in a fancy box, in which case wiring
the end pins of the pots to +5 and ground, and the center pin to the wiper
pin, will work fine.  You could wire the buttons to sustain pedal jacks
too.

Beware that the potentiometers used in joysticks often have an unusual
resistive curve.
There may be a deadband, that is, an area in the middle where moving the
control doesn't change the resistance. The voltage output has a plateau in
the middle.  This may be a bonus or a detriment to your application.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:52:50 -0700
From:    Matt Biederman 
Subject: PCI-Serial cards.....

Anyone ever use either the Keyspan or CSI PCI Serial cards to control
multiple RS-232 devices with MAX? I'll need to send different types
(hex, ASCII), at different baud rates - will MAX cut the mustard?

thanks maxers...

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End of MAX Digest - 28 Jul 1998 to 29 Jul 1998
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