Subject: MAX Digest - 17 Jul 1998 to 18 Jul 1998
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:21:13 -0400
From: Jon Witte 
Organization: Music Machine
To: jonwitte@CYBERNEX.NET

----------
From: Automatic digest processor 
To: Recipients of MAX digests 
Subject: MAX Digest - 17 Jul 1998 to 18 Jul 1998
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:00:00 -0400

There are 12 messages totalling 461 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. minimum delay
  2. 
  3. MAX Digest - 16 Jul 1998 to 17 Jul 1998
  4. nick longo 2
  5. strange message
  6. Measuring CPU usage or "MAX strain"
  7. movement -> midi
  8. motion/position sensor input (2)
  9. float pecularities
 10. am I a legal owner ?
 11. e z k t u j b

McGill is running a new version of LISTSERV (1.8c on Windows NT).
Information is available on the WEB at http://www.mcgill.ca/cc/listserv

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Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:13:43 -0400
From:    Dan Trueman 
Subject: minimum delay

Hello,

I think this question was answered before, so I apologize for asking
again:

What is the minimum delay possible in a MSP patch using tapin/tapout?
I'm assuming the lower bound is determined by the signal vector size,
if I understand how the dsp chain works. Hacking a single sample delay
line external (which I did before thinking about it) would just be
asking for trouble, right?

Thanks,
Dan

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:35:21 -0400
From:    Nicholas Longo <71477.2332@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: 

does anyone understand and know what to do with this message :

" Please enter a valid response to the challenge below in order to use Max
3.5
" Challenge : NOR CUR YAW WEEP GERM SITS CYST
" Response :
" 3 buttons : Copy Challenge, Cancel an OK (grey)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:16:31 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 
Subject: Re: MAX Digest - 16 Jul 1998 to 17 Jul 1998

>X-From_: 71477.2332@compuserve.com  Sat Jul 18 00:03:34 1998
>Sender: 71477.2332@compuserve.com
>Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 21:41:53 +0000
>From: Nick Longo <71477.2332@compuserve.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C (Macintosh; I; 68K)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: =cw4t7abs 
>Subject: nazis gotta go
>
>You know what we do with nazis where I come from?   Read your history
>pig.

apologize

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:27:01 -0600
From:    =cw4t7abs 
Subject: nick longo 2

>From ???@??? Sat Jul 18 00:15:12 1998
>Received: by huitzilo for antiorp
> (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.21 1997/08/10) Sat Jul 18 00:03:42 1998)
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>Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 21:41:53 +0000
>From: Nick Longo <71477.2332@compuserve.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C (Macintosh; I; 68K)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: =cw4t7abs 
>Subject: nazis gotta go
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>You know what we do with nazis where I come from?   Read your history
>pig.
>
>

sorry 2 mail this again. wanted the full headers present.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:11:46 +0200
From:    "jan.larsson" 
Subject: Re: strange message

>>I bouhgt a new key-diskette from local retailer but It doesn't work an
>>seems to be "corrupted" : always the same symptom : "Error while
>>validating the authorization count. The authorization count on your key
>>disk has been corrupted, possibly by a pirating utility. You may use
>>this diskette as a key, but you can't perform any installations or
>>removals. Result code : 107    "

I have had the same problem with Cubase VST. I have never
used, or even downloaded, KDT.

There are obvious bugs in the Pace copy-protection.

Let me also add my frustration over local distributors.
It took me four months to upgrade a legally purchased
and registered Max.

/jan larsson

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:31:08 -0600
From:    "Pablo Silva-Escuela Nacional de Musica, UNAM"
         
Subject: Measuring CPU usage or "MAX strain"

Is there a way of measuring how much a MAX patch (non MSP) is taxing both
MAX and my computer's capacity? I imagine this could vary widely at
different times, according to settings inside the patch and
input-throughput-output. This is because I have been getting the feeling
that some crashes I've had are due to some parts of my patch behaving
wierdly somehow when working together, as I test thoroughly each part
separately...

On a related topic, any suggestions for debugging beyond those mentioned
in the Max manual?

Pablo Silva

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:00:54 +0200
From:    Jeffrey Burns 
Subject: movement -> midi

> I'm working on my Master's thesis and was wondering if Max can help me
out.
> >From what I've heard, someone out there has used Max to process inputs
from
> motion and/or position sensors.  That's what I'm hoping to accomplish as
> well.  I'm wondering what equipment people have used for tracking a person
> moving through space without having sensors attached to the observed body
and
> pointers on how to use Max in this context.  Thanks.

I think BigEye by STEIM is what you need. It will do some midi processing,
but, for more elaborate things, you can connect it to Max via OMS's IAC.

Jeff Burns

http://www.snafu.de/~jeff

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:37:02 +0200
From:    Oeyvind Brandtsegg 
Subject: Re: motion/position sensor input

Here's some more.

Dimesion Beam, Infrared midi controllers. Based on an egg shaped
infrared beam, senses an objects distance from the sensor. Outputs 0 -
127 (various type) midi data. Got them pretty cheap here in Norway,
because people didn't seem to know what
to do with them.

Infusion Systems, Analog-to-Midi Interface w/various type sensors
(pressure, light, switches etc.)

email me directly if you want more info on these.

You can also try Dan O'Sullivans Physical Computing Page at
http://www.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~alumni/dano/physical/physical.html
with lots of different info about the subject.

Oeyvind

> >
> > Hello all; first-time poster here.
> >
> > I'm working on my Master's thesis and was wondering if Max can help me
out.
> > >From what I've heard, someone out there has used Max to process inputs
from
> > motion and/or position sensors.  That's what I'm hoping to accomplish as
> > well.  I'm wondering what equipment people have used for tracking a
person
> > moving through space without having sensors attached to the observed
body and
> > pointers on how to use Max in this context.  Thanks.
> >
> > --
> > m.                                a.                                 g.
> > 'Mark A. Gee', 'http://www.io.com/~mag', 'mag@sciarc.edu', 'mag@io.com'
> > { archipelago:          S C I - A r c Online}
> >
> > McGill is running a new version of LISTSERV (1.8c on Windows NT).
> > Information is available on the WEB at http://www.mcgill.ca/cc/listserv
> >
>
> McGill is running a new version of LISTSERV (1.8c on Windows NT).
> Information is available on the WEB at http://www.mcgill.ca/cc/listserv

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:15:24 +0100
From:    Trond & Laila Linde Lossius 
Subject: Re: float pecularities

Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:17:41 +0200 Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:

>However I encountered strange behaviour from float number boxes.
>Try this at your system please, and tell me what you get to:
>
>Open a new patcher.
>Put one floating-piont number box in there.
>Enlarge the number box a bit, to make room for about 8 digits in there.
>Type 16.2 into the number box.
>Hit [enter]
>
>I get 16.200001 displayed in the box after hitting enter. Everything up
>to 16.09 seems to be straight, but above that a lot of floating point
>numbers behave rather funny. All the errors are pretty small, but
>concistent every time. For example 32.9 is "corrected" to 32.900002.
>I can't recall having seen this before. Have you ?

This is due to the way decimal numbers are represented by computers; as
floating points in the format: x * 10^n where absolute value of x is a
decimal number in the range 0.1 to 0.999... and n is a integer in the
range -127 to + 128 (as far as I remember). Computers generally
representing floats using 32 bits: 24 for the x-part and 8 for the
n-part. Hence there is a limit as to how many digits of a real number the
computer is able to store accurately. With 32 bits precision (single
precision) the 8th digit might be inaccurate, as is the case for the
number 16.2.

Some programming languages is able to increase the number of bits used
for floats from 32 to 64 (extra precision or double precision), but as
far as I know this is not the case with Max. Maybe external objects do
exist?

If you are depending on the last digits of real numbers and do not take
into account the limitations on precision, you'll easily be in for some
less pleasing surprises (e.g. try subtracting 0.000 000 5 twice from 16.2
instead of subtracting 0.000 001).

There seems to be a limit to how many digits of the decimal fraction Max
is willing to expose. Perhaps that's why 16.2 shows up as 16.20001 while
1.62 and 162.0 behave "normal". That puzzled me a bit as the "x-part" of
the float should be the same for all three of them.

Trond L.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:21:28 -0400
From:    Jeff Mann 
Subject: Re: am I a legal owner ?

James Livingston  wrote:
> Until this policy was changed (~18 months ago) Opcode would transfer a
> license from the REGISTERED original owner to the new owner (with the
> signed consent of both parties) for a fee of $25 US.  Last I heard Opcode
> will no longer transfer software licenses from the original individual who
> registered a specific serialized copy of any software to any other
> individual for a fee, for free, or otherwise.
>
> For the "Official" answer contact Opcode Customer Support (650-856-3333;
> info@opcode.com) or your local distributor.

I did, and they confirmed it. infoone@opcode.com wrote:
>We discontinued transfer of ownership 1/97.
(That's all they wrote.)

> [Jeff Mann:]
> > I bought Studio Vision Pro, which I paid a lot
> >of money for, and then bought Logic Audio. Now I should just toss Studio
> >Vision in the trash? I can't sell my copy of Max so that I can buy a
> >nice Linux box and run Pd? No way! I've never heard of such a thing. As
> >I said, I would think that Opcode's written consent for a license
> >transfer can't be unreasonably withheld, so I would encourage people not
> >to put up with this. Any Californian lawyers out there?

> [James Livingston:]
> Huh?  I don't follow your reasoning here but, as I said before...
>
> If you bought a computer and it has a bunch of Opcode software installed
on
> it, you are welcome to use that software to your heart's content.
However,
> if you expect that you will be eligible for technical support, upgrade
> pricing, or backup disks for whatever program and version was installed
> (which the REGISTERED  license holder is eligible for) then you are
> mistaken.

What I was trying to say was that this policy makes my software
worthless if I want to sell it to someone else. Musicians buy and sell
their equipment all the time. But no-one will pay anything for software
that they don't get a license for. Who would pay several hundred dollars
for a fragile key disk that can't be replaced? I'm not talking about
leaving some old version of something on a computer. I'm talking about
the right to sell something of value that I own - the license to the
software.

Thankfully, I never registered my copy of Studio Vision Pro, so I can
still expect to get a few hundred dollars for it. (Anyone want to buy
it?) But I did register my Max. So now it has a resale value of sweet
f***-all. Not that I'm planning to sell it in the near future, but you
never know.

Now, I don't want to get into a bunch of legal-philosophical or
metaphorical discussions here. The fact is that I know of no other
software company that has this draconian policy. I recently sold my
(expensive) Adobe AfterEffects software for a decent price, and it was a
simple matter of faxing them a signed form. No fee, no hassle.
Everyone's happy. If I had thought that I wouldn't be allowed to sell
it, I never would have bought it in the first place. It is highly
unlikely that I will ever buy another Opcode product while this policy
is in place.

--
Jeff Mann - Information Consumer ___O___O__= -- >
mailto:jefman@utcc.utoronto.ca ||   http://www.interlog.com/~jefman
Visit the Art & Robotics Group site: http://www.interaccess.org/arg

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:35:43 -0500
From:    "Frank L. Thiel" 
Subject: Re: motion/position sensor input

>Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:21:53 GMT
>From:    Mark Gee 
>Subject: motion/position sensor input

>I'm working on my Master's thesis and was wondering if Max can help me out.
>>From what I've heard, someone out there has used Max to process inputs
from
>motion and/or position sensors.  That's what I'm hoping to accomplish as
>well.  I'm wondering what equipment people have used for tracking a person
>moving through space without having sensors attached to the observed body
and
>pointers on how to use Max in this context.  Thanks.

Mark,

   There are several approaches to this out there, depending on your
application, how much you want to spend, and whether you feel like
monkeying around with hardware designs or not.  For high end stuff, there
is the commercial Big Eye system which uses cameras and can differentiate
colors as well as images.  I don't know much about this system.  There is
also the "Very Nervous System" (VNS) which uses cameras and software to
sense movement.  Todd Winkler mentioned this a few months ago on this list.
Here is his URL to a paper about it:

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Music/faculty/winkler/papers/conn_college2.
txt

   As for using sensors rather than video imaging, the design depends on
whether you want to require the people being sensed to use some targetting
device.  Since you say you do not, then the choices are more limited.  I
have experimented with different Theremin-like concepts and "antenna"
designs and found them to be  highly limited if you need to sense movement
from more than a few feet away from the device.  A floor-like unit would be
needed (like the one mentioned by Fleur de Vie Weinstock).

   There are laser and infrared sensors, as well as mats with matrixed
contact switches that can also be used.  My personal favorite is SONAR
sensors, which ping an object and report its distance.  These are easily
usable to 40 feet away or so.  Polaroid sells the 6500 Ultrasonic Ranging
System which contains 2 sensors and processing/driver boards for $99.  I
have adapted these for generating MIDI using a PC (I know this is probably
sacrilege on a MAX users group).  They could also be easily made to work
with a Mac and MAX using a data acquisition interface such as the ADB I/O
box by Bzzzzzz:

http://www.bzzzzzz.com/BeeHive/ADB_IO/ADBIO_Intro.html

   The only problem with the Polaroid ranging units is that they produce an
audible click when they ping.  I was working on a design using a quieter
type of sensor, but never got a chance to finish it.

Hope that helps!

_____________________________
Frank L. Thiel
School of Music
University of Texas at Austin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:05:53 -0400
From:    Stephen Kay 
Subject: e z k t u j b

>how does one access the text in the max window ?
>can - one access the text in the max window ?

As far as I know, you cannot "access" the text in the
Max window, other than to copy, save, paste it etc. using
menu commands.  But some text in the window is the result
of using the print object yourself, so it's easy to intercept =

at the source if you want.  Text that is directly printed
in the window of Max is usually the result of calling the
"post" function in the C Code of the object itself.  The
makers of various objects could provide an outlet to send
out the text if desired.  Also, I would venture to guess
that it might not be too difficult for David Z. to make
a "post" object that would simply spew the contents of =

*any* post messages called by *any* objects out an outlet.
But if you told us what text you want to access, perhaps a =

(short-term) solution could be suggested.

>how does one erase an object in a patcher ?
>dynamically ?

Is that "erase" (i.e. hide it) or "delete"?  Two different things.

>antiorp will type in standard english for 1 month if the
>questions above are answered satisfactorily.

>antiorp will type in standard english for 2 months if the
>questions above are answered satisfactorily by stephen kay

I'll try my best.

Stephen Kay

------------------------------

End of MAX Digest - 17 Jul 1998 to 18 Jul 1998
**********************************************